Freethought & Rationalism Archive

phil · 08-03-2003, 06:17 PM

I propose a challange.

Most of you are sitting in a chair at your computer. Give undeniable proof that your chair exists, without a shadow of a doubt.

If you can't prove your chair exists, how are you supposed to prove or disprove that God exists or doesn't exist?

-phil

Jobar · 08-03-2003, 06:29 PM

"Undeniable proof?" Well, if you want to push that line of reasoning far enough, the only thing you can 'prove' exists is your own consciousness. However, solipsism is not a very useful way to look at the universe.

However, if you really, really want to prove the existence of Jobar's Chair, give me your address, pay me $100 plus shipping, and I will send it to you. Then you can sit in it yourself. Would that suffice?

08-03-2003, 06:34 PM

You can come to my house. You can see and touch my chair. If you really wanted to, you taste it and smell it, too. And if that isn't good enough, I can also show you my receipt, and if I ask Best Buy really nicely, I might be able to get shipping information regarding my chair. And guess what? You and I can do all of that without dying first.

SRB · 08-03-2003, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by phil
I propose a challange.

Most of you are sitting in a chair at your computer. Give undeniable proof that your chair exists, without a shadow of a doubt.

If you can't prove your chair exists, how are you supposed to prove or disprove that God exists or doesn't exist?

-phil

Even if one cannot prove that a chair exists beyond all doubt, one can surely prove that a chair exists to some lesser standard of proof (e.g. beyond all reasonable doubt). People's observations would be enough to establish that.

Maybe God's existence (or nonexistence) can be proved beyond all reasonable doubt. Or maybe God's existence (or nonexistence) can be shown to be more likely than not. That is, maybe the preponderance of evidence tends to show that God exists (or does not exist).

It is important to be clear what you mean by "proof."

SRB

Felstorm · 08-03-2003, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by phil
I propose a challange.

Most of you are sitting in a chair at your computer. Give undeniable proof that your chair exists, without a shadow of a doubt.

If you can't prove your chair exists, how are you supposed to prove or disprove that God exists or doesn't exist?

-phil

This isn't even an argument.

You are trying to compare an apple to an orange.

Chair = Physical inanimate object

"God" = Non-corporeal subjective idea.

Howard · 08-03-2003, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by phil
Most of you are sitting in a chair at your computer. Give undeniable proof that your chair exists, without a shadow of a doubt.

Would a buttprint do? I think mine's on file with the FBI.

Why don't you tell us what constitutes "undeniable proof" - of anything.

(A lot of deep thoughts don't seem so deep after you come down.)

Shadowy Man · 08-03-2003, 08:29 PM

proof: the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or fact.

Very easy to do with my desk chair. Much harder with things like gods, which aren't even well-defined concepts to begin with.

Now, if you are thinking mathematical proof, as in my chair must exist axiomatically, then yes, I think you'll have a harder time of it.

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ · 08-03-2003, 09:38 PM

Actually, I hover in a nirvana-like trance. What are these "chairs" that you speak of?

Here is a good one:

I cannot hover in a nirvana-like state, or any state at all.
The keyboard is not at floor level, nor is the monitor.
I would get rather uncomfortable to bend over while standing at my computer for hours at end.
It would be rather reasonable for me to be sitting, wouldn't it?
I'm sitting on something since it would be reasonable to do so.
I'll call this a chair, even if it isn't.
If I had a webcam, I could show you that I am, but I'm too cheap to buy one.
I'm not lying to you.
My chair exists so far as I am concerned--bugger all else.

As for God:

We cannot definitively touch him
We cannot definitively see him
He will not necessarily reply to your prayers in an intelligble fashion.
He will not even state whether he really is a he or a she.
(S)He does seem to be rather impotent for an omnipotent being, what with needing a sacrifice in order to forgive.

Why should I accept his existence?

asgardhaven · 08-03-2003, 10:11 PM

One of the joys of defining yourself by agnostism is that you can avoid having to do these sort of excercises regularly

Phil

If you can't prove your chair exists, how are you supposed to prove or disprove that God exists or doesn't exist?

You're not. Look at it as finding a position that you have a high level of confidence in. The universe oh so hates asbolutes.

Mister Impossible · 08-04-2003, 12:54 AM

Phil,

I take it you were sat down when you posted this challenge. Was it a chair you sat in? Was it a stool, or a bench?

If you were sat down, or have ever sat on something before, I am guessing some of those things were, or could be called, chairs and if you were to point at some of these things and ask a passer-by what they were, they would say "chair", before backing away slowing whilst avoiding eye contact.

I think we all agree that, given the universal concept "chair", most of us would conjure up a similar mental image.

I suggest you read up on epistemology and universals. I think you'll find it interesting.

Have fun.

08-03-2003, 06:17 PM	#1
phil Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 170	Analyze This! I propose a challange. Most of you are sitting in a chair at your computer. Give undeniable proof that your chair exists, without a shadow of a doubt. If you can't prove your chair exists, how are you supposed to prove or disprove that God exists or doesn't exist? -phil

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08-03-2003, 06:29 PM	#2
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	"Undeniable proof?" Well, if you want to push that line of reasoning far enough, the only thing you can 'prove' exists is your own consciousness. However, solipsism is not a very useful way to look at the universe. However, if you really, really want to prove the existence of Jobar's Chair, give me your address, pay me $100 plus shipping, and I will send it to you. Then you can sit in it yourself. Would that suffice?

08-03-2003, 06:34 PM	#3
Ad Astra Guest Posts: n/a	You can come to my house. You can see and touch my chair. If you really wanted to, you taste it and smell it, too. And if that isn't good enough, I can also show you my receipt, and if I ask Best Buy really nicely, I might be able to get shipping information regarding my chair. And guess what? You and I can do all of that without dying first.

08-03-2003, 08:29 PM	#7
Shadowy Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Shadowy Planet Posts: 7,585	proof: the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or fact. Very easy to do with my desk chair. Much harder with things like gods, which aren't even well-defined concepts to begin with. Now, if you are thinking mathematical proof, as in my chair must exist axiomatically, then yes, I think you'll have a harder time of it.

08-03-2003, 09:38 PM	#8
Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Heaven Posts: 6,980	Actually, I hover in a nirvana-like trance. What are these "chairs" that you speak of? Here is a good one: I cannot hover in a nirvana-like state, or any state at all. The keyboard is not at floor level, nor is the monitor. I would get rather uncomfortable to bend over while standing at my computer for hours at end. It would be rather reasonable for me to be sitting, wouldn't it? I'm sitting on something since it would be reasonable to do so. I'll call this a chair, even if it isn't. If I had a webcam, I could show you that I am, but I'm too cheap to buy one. I'm not lying to you. My chair exists so far as I am concerned--bugger all else. As for God: We cannot definitively touch him We cannot definitively see him He will not necessarily reply to your prayers in an intelligble fashion. He will not even state whether he really is a he or a she. (S)He does seem to be rather impotent for an omnipotent being, what with needing a sacrifice in order to forgive. Why should I accept his existence?

08-03-2003, 10:11 PM	#9
asgardhaven Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN USA Posts: 129	One of the joys of defining yourself by agnostism is that you can avoid having to do these sort of excercises regularly Phil If you can't prove your chair exists, how are you supposed to prove or disprove that God exists or doesn't exist? You're not. Look at it as finding a position that you have a high level of confidence in. The universe oh so hates asbolutes.

08-04-2003, 12:54 AM	#10
Mister Impossible Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: UK Posts: 298	Phil, I take it you were sat down when you posted this challenge. Was it a chair you sat in? Was it a stool, or a bench? If you were sat down, or have ever sat on something before, I am guessing some of those things were, or could be called, chairs and if you were to point at some of these things and ask a passer-by what they were, they would say "chair", before backing away slowing whilst avoiding eye contact. I think we all agree that, given the universal concept "chair", most of us would conjure up a similar mental image. I suggest you read up on epistemology and universals. I think you'll find it interesting. Have fun.

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