Gooch's dad

DivineOb:

I stopped being a Christian as a teen for some of the same reasons that you describe. At the time, two of my sisters claimed to be 'born again' and 'filled with the spirit'. I went through the whole prayer thing, giving myself to Jesus, and...nothing happened. I wasn't changed in the least bit, I wasn't filled with any 'spirit', and after a few months of going through the motions, I concluded that there was no 'holy spirit'.

One of those sisters is now a happy pagan. Her split with the fundie church nearly ended her life, too (another story for another time).

But the fact that she is now a non-christian, as are many thousands of others, leads me to conclude that there is no holy spirit.

After all, these people (people such as Dan Barker) claimed to be filled with this spirit. If it was such a strong and convincing experience, why would they possibly give it up?

If I really had a personal revelation of this magnitude, one that convinced me that I had a 'gift of eternal life', why would I possibly give it up? Why would any of those other ex-christians?

My only conclusion is that they realized that they had just deluded themselves. They had talked themselves into believing this was a 'holy spirit' and they finally realized this.

Welcome to the SecWeb!

Island3

DivineOb?

As in the same DivineOb from FARK? If so than welcome my friend! How good it is to see you once more! I take it you do remember me don't you?

Well enough with that, welcome to SecWeb!

Theli

Veil of Fire...
I don't think you can make so many theories (not wrong theories either) on the matter of creation/evolution. Either the world was created out of nothing to instantly form what we know today, or it evolved from chaos.

I can't even come up with a 3rd option.

As for atheism, I agree. Becoming an atheist just because you hate christianity is not a good idea. Although it sometimes follow.
I have discussed with people before who believe in a personal god but utterly hate religion. I think it helps if you divide god in 3 parts. Creator/Biblical/Personal god. Some believe in 1, some 2 and some belives in all 3.

You could reject the biblical- and perhaps the creator-god on those grounds.

Grumpy

How about 4) The Christian God doesn't exist -- but a malevolent supernatural trickster does. This trickster masquerades as the Holy Spirit and feeds sincere believers contradictory messages.

Or 5) A benevolent God exists, but is incompetent, or simply has poor communication skills. You know, like when the Holy Spirit tells you to "put food on your family" or "make the pie higher."

DivineOb

Heeey Island3... Well, I remember many arguments on fark and I remember you being involved in one of them... sorry I don't remember more specifically than that ...

As to the others, thanks for your responses. My reasoning just seemed so simple I wanted to confirm that there wasn't a trivial error I was making.

Veil of Fire:
You notice option 3 was that the christian God didn't exist. I didn't mean to say that this argument disproves any god from existing. However, I have reservations about believing in another 'form' of God (by the same reasoning which drew me to christianity in the first place). And, at this point, it is more critical to 'disprove' the christian God than to determine which, if any, form God takes in this world for me right now.

Pomp

[Veil of Fire,

Granted. My point was simply that rejecting all religion merely because of the *theological* flaws in one religion is silly.

Agreed.

However, the plus side to MY belief system is that if I ever decide to get up the werewithal to go out and do some empirical testing, I can expect a result. Ask me sometime next semester for evidence... I'm desiging several experiments currently to test pieces of my belief system.

I'd be very interested to see the details of those experiments. Can you comment now on which facets of your beliefs you intend to test?

Tercel

Even rejecting all of Christianity because of *theological* flaws is silly. The Christian tradition is diverse enough that for almost every doctrine there exist Christians who don't hold that doctrine. I see this as a bonus, but apparently DivineOb doesn't, so on to that:

DivineOb writes:
I'm sorry for you, it's always tough being unsure what to believe.

That's easy: Because Christians both modern and past are for the most part still human and given to the normal human traits of bickering, infighting and thinking themselves right above all others.
Even though they have different thoughts about what is right, you'd think they'd note <a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=ROM+14&language=english&version=NIV-IBS&showfn=on&showxref=on" target="_blank">Romans 14</a> where Paul, states pretty explicitly that even if we have different views on a subject than one of our brothers we should accept what our brother wants in case we cause him to stumble in his faith.
And Paul states: "For the kingdom of God is... a matter... of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification."

CS Lewis pointed out that the divisions between the high and low Anglicans would be solved if they actually cared about this passage, for the high Anglicans would be happy to be as low Anglicans and vice versa for the sake of their brothers.
It simply shows that divisions in the Church are not something that God has failed to prevent, but something that man has created through his selfishness.

I'm inclined to think that there has in reality been very little honest asking of the holy spirit going on within the Church. And the voices of the honest askers almost inevitably have been drowned out by the proud people who know "best" by their own authority.

Even so, can it necessarily be considered God's responsibility to dictate doctrine? I am inclined to think that God doesn't give two figs as to whether our view of Christian doctrine is correct so much as whether we love one another.
The prophet Amos, writing in a time "of great prosperity, notable religious piety, and apparent security... saw that prosperity was limited to the wealthy, and that it fed on injustice and on oppression of the poor" (Good News Version's Introduction for Amos), wrote that:
"The LORD says, "I hate your religious festivals; I cannot stand them! When you bring me burnt- offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them; I will not accept the animals you have fattened to bring me as offerings. Stop your noisy songs; I do not want to listen to your harps. Instead, let justice flow like a stream, and righteousness like a river that never goes dry." (Amos 5:21-24)

James comments that:
"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." (James 1:27)
Paul said:
"I may have all the faith needed to move mountains - but if I have no love, I am nothing" (1 Cor 13:2)
Jesus said:
"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? (Luke 6:46)
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." (John 13:34)
James sums it up when he wrote:
"My brothers, what good is it for someone to say that he has faith if his actions do not prove it? Can that faith save him?.... Do you believe there is only one God? Good! The demons also believe - and tremble with fear. You fool! Do you want to be shown that faith without actions is useless?" (James 2:14-20)
Or John when he wrote:
"If we obey God's commands, then we are sure that we know him. If someone says that he knows him, but does not obey his commands, such a person is a liar and there is no truth in him. But whoever obeys his word is the one whose love for God has really been made perfect. This is how we can be sure that we are in union with God: whoever says that he remains in union with God should live just as Jesus Christ did." (1 John 2:3-6)

Indeed. Of course many of them even think they have a personal line to God with the oh so important Personal-Relationship-With-God (tm): I'm still unable to find the exact Bible verse where God promises to talk to all his followers every day.
~sigh~ But here is not the place for a rant about the fundamentalist's mis-portrayal of Christianity, their dodgy doctrines, or their "feel-good" version of the Christian message.

Hmm. I think the Bible is pretty clear what God wants, even in a cursory read of the New Testament, some points stand out like a sore thumb:
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."
"Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves."
"Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law."
"You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature rather, serve one another in love."
"Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love."
"And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds."
"Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart."
"Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble."
"This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another."
"And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us."
"Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God."
"Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another."
"No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us."
"And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another."
"love your neighbor as yourself"
"'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
"To love God with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
"The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself.""
"The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself.""
"If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself" you are doing right."
"Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will."
"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other."
"You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. "In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold. He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.
Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you."
"Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you."
"in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love; in truthful speech and in the power of God; with weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left"
"For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth)"
"make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love."

I could go on and on: a huge proportion of the New Testament is filled with things in a similar vein. It's hard in all honest to claim the message is "unclear", it seems to me anything but.

However character improvement is not a particularly feel-good message and doesn't tend to sell easily: so people spend their time inventing more attractive gospels involving things like personal-relationships-with-Jesus, going to heaven if you become a Christian and going to hell otherwise, God solves all the problems in your life once you become a Christian, etc.

Anyway: that's my two cents, I hope it helps,
God Bless,
Tercel

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Tercel ]</p>

luvluv

You go, Tercel.

I'd also like to add a fourth option:

4) God wants different things from different people and people arrogantly assume that EVERYONE should do what God has told THEM to do.

And I agree with Tercel that everyone has their own politics, pet vices, ambition, etc, and that has a heavy influence on what parts of the gospel they will emphasize and what part they will ignore, AND to what messages from the Holy Spirit they will receive and which ones they will ignore. Speaking as a Christian, I have before heard words from the Holy Spirit that I immediately dismissed because what the Holy Spirit was asking me to do did not fit my politics or my petty preferences. The Holy Spirit can speak to you and yet you can choose to ignore it or to explain it away as your own random thought. The Holy Spirit usually does not come into your head like a voice from a distant trumpet. It is generally gentle enough that you can totally ingore it if you want to.

DivineOb

Tercel,

While I suppose it is true that the bible never promises that God will interact with you daily etc, the behavior of Jesus seems to indicate that he was constantly in dialog with the Father, and constanyly allowing the Father's desires to rule over his own.

That aside... You have the view that a large number of people who believe they are allowing God to reign in their hearts are not doing so. However, what about the 'presence of God' they claim to feel? What about them being 'on fire for God with the holy spirit'? If they believe they are feeling those things, and they really *aren't*, then how could one determine the difference between when one is deluding oneself and when one really is feeling the presence of God? Again I ask... if it is so hard to discern the will of God, or if God even cares about the question you are asking, then what is the point? When God communicates something to you, how do you know that it is from God, and you're not deluding yourself like other believers? And why would God allow someone to believe they were being led by the spirit if they really weren't?

From your response it seems you think one should largely live ones life based on what we have in scripture about what God wants... This is fine, but I find it a little disconcerting that the holy spirit had such a dramatic effect on people back in Acts, but nowadays does much less...

luvluv:
If two people ask God whether women should be allowed to be pastors, how could God give each person a different answer? Both answers can't be right, and it is very difficult for me to think of a way in which it benefits the church to have two groups holding different opinions on this issue.

Philosoft

I know I'm going to regret asking this...

Why would God bother invading your head and asking you to do something he knows is against your nature?

Do you realize the only thing separating you from your very own padded studio apartment is the fact you used "Holy Spirit" instead of "Elvis"? Creepy.

Seems the more I learn about this God fellow, the less I understand.