DivineOb

Greetings,

In case it is relevant, I'll just say that I became a christian about 6 years ago (I'm 24 now) and am seriously considering becoming agnostic / atheist (don't really know what I believe, just what I no longer do).

The reason for this is the source of my question. Why is there so much disagreement within the church (both modern day and between modern day and the past)? If the leaders of the church honestly ask the holy spirit to guide them and have their hearts and minds open to God, why would they come to different conclusions? Shouldn't the holy spirit lead them to the same answers? The possible responses to this I can see are the following...

1) One or both of the people aren't actually open to listening to God, but are really acting out their own desires... but that would also imply that so many christians are actually deluded about their openness to God's message.

2) It's just really hard to know what God wants and sometimes people misinterpret it. But if this is the case, then whats the point of even trying?

3) The christian God doesn't exist...

Is there anything I'm missing? Is this not a good argument that the christian God either doesn't exist, or is so hard to communicate with that theres no point in trying anyway?

Automaton

Welcome to the forums. Your post is correct. There is absolutely no methodological way to determine who is "deluded" and who isn't, or even if you yourself are "deluded". Thus the most intellectually honest position faced with mutually exclusive doctrines is nonreligiousness.
It should NOT, under any circumstances, be possible to be "deluded" by Revelation if someone honestly opens their hearts to the Holy Spirit. If God doesn't grant Truth through Revelation, that means either God doesn't care (not Christian God, conflicts with concept of loving creator and maintainer of the universe), or is incompetant (conflicts with the very concept of deity itself, which must necessarily include omnipotence).
Again this makes God either incompetant or uncaring, at getting the point across.
Through deduction, this must therefore be the true position.

[ Edited due to my poor spelling. ]

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Automaton ]</p>

HelenM

This is the Secular Web, so I'd say this isn't the best place to find out if you're missing anything.

Go ask some Christians and see if they can answer your questions convincingly...I would hope you've asked them of your church!

Speaking for myself I think you raise some good points. I don't agree with the 'what's the point of even trying?' because you could say that about anything. Especially if you're going to be agnostic/atheist because if you are you're going from a world of absolutes and certainty to a world in which you can't be sure; you do the best you can but there's no guaranteed reward at the end for the faithful; there's no guaranteed salvation; you are walking away from the certainty of 'the promises of God'. Maybe that's what you want; maybe you don't see yourself as having any other choice - I mean, if you don't believe, you can't 'make yourself' believe again, can you?

Still though, if you really want answers to your questions I do suggest that you ask Christians as well as the people here, who are almost all non-Christians.

I hope you find the truth and that it sets you free

love
Helen

Automaton

Actually, the whole reason he posted this is because he feels there is no certainty in Christianity, as everyone claims to know the exact, divine Truth, and there are dozens of different "Truths" that contradict, or at least infringe on, eachother. This conflicts with the idea of perfect revelation from a perfect God.

Veil of Fire

There are, of course, more than two options. Perhaps you could look into some of the non-Abrahamic religions and see if their answers ring truer to you.

It always annoys me to see people become atheists just because they don't like Christianity. False Delimma fallacy; BOTH could be wrong.

Mageth

I don't know any atheists who became so just because they didn't like xianity.

Veil of Fire

Mageth: Most of the atheists I've met in person seem to embrace the False Delimma as the be-all and end-all of religious debate.

The argument is something along the lines of "God power can't exist, because the Bible says/Christians do/Christians say/[Insert Christianity Problem here]." I really can't count the number of atheists who have tried to argue with me like I was a Christian when it came to the existance of a higher being.

The sad fact is, at least around here (we could be dealing with regional differences, of course), most of the atheists I've met went straight from Christianity to atheism without any thought of intermediate steps. "I refuse to believe in God because the Bible contradicts itself" is the most common thing I've heard personally.

It really reminds me of how Christian fundies think that if Evolution is wrong, Creationism MUST be right. As if there isn't an infinite number of wrong answers.

Pomp

Veil of Fire,

The sad fact is, at least around here (we could be dealing with regional differences, of course), most of the atheists I've met went straight from Christianity to atheism without any thought of intermediate steps.

I think this has a lot to do with the fact that the strongest argument against Xianity works against all theistic belief systems: lack of evidence. In rejecting Xianity, one usually realizes that positive assertions, suxh as the existence of deity X, are not to be accepted without evidence of some sort. We just don't see any evidence in the world that any gods exist, so it doesn't make much sense for us to try on various superstitions just in case.

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Pompous Bastard ]</p>

Veil of Fire

See, that I don't mind. The problem I have is with people who use Christianity's numerous problems as evidence FOR their position, ie there is no God at all.

Granted. My point was simply that rejecting all religion merely because of the *theological* flaws in one religion is silly.

As for evidence, well, that's another thread entirely, and I'm sure any argument I could come up with for acceptance without evidence has been beaten into the ground and beyond (they wouldn't just be beating dead horses, they'd be thwacking a stick into the pavement at a spot where a horse used to be at one time).

However, the plus side to MY belief system is that if I ever decide to get up the werewithal to go out and do some empirical testing, I can expect a result. Ask me sometime next semester for evidence... I'm desiging several experiments currently to test pieces of my belief system.

Mageth

It took me at least 25 years to go from xianity to atheism. I took a lot of intermediate steps, the final of which was coming to the realization that I lack a belief in any god. Further, I've come to disbelieve in the supernatural in any shape, form or fashion.