Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David Mathews · 07-08-2002, 08:00 PM

Hello John,

Quote:

Anyway, going back to your original post and my unanswered questions, what do you think is the eternal part of an individual other than dust?

David: I believe that the eternal part is the soul. I don't know what the soul is and have no means of verifying its existence. Therefore, the soul is a matter of faith for me.

Whether or not we exist after death seems an irrelevant question because our life is composed of what we are doing here and now, no matter what happens after we die we still must live in the here and now.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

John Page · 07-09-2002, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
Whether or not we exist after death seems an irrelevant question because our life is composed of what we are doing here and now..

Ah, but our current actions are affected by whether we believe in life after death. This being the case, IMO belief in an afterlife encourages behavior that is beneficial in the long term for the societal group concerned. Otherwise, why become a martyr?

The above seems to me the pragmatic benefit of faith, making the "group" stronger over generations. The curious thing is that it doesn't seem to matter exactly what one has faith in - I forget which Greek philosopher observed that in building a city state it didn't matter exactly what your motto or rallying cry was, so long as you had one.

Do you think there are other reasons why people should believe in life after death?

Cheers, John

The Other Michael · 07-09-2002, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Page:
The above seems to me the pragmatic benefit of faith, making the "group" stronger over generations. The curious thing is that it doesn't seem to matter exactly what one has faith in - I forget which Greek philosopher observed that in building a city state it didn't matter exactly what your motto or rallying cry was, so long as you had one.

"Death to the other guy, steal his stuff and rape his women" seems to have been a pretty popular rallying cry down through the ages.

cheers,
Michael

David Mathews · 07-09-2002, 12:25 PM

Hello John,

Quote:

Ah, but our current actions are affected by whether we believe in life after death. This being the case, IMO belief in an afterlife encourages behavior that is beneficial in the long term for the societal group concerned. Otherwise, why become a martyr?

David: Belief in an afterlife is beneficial to the degree to which it does motivate people to sacrifice their life in defense of others. Martyrdom is such a self-sacrifice in which people die in defense of their faith and their fellow believers. There are other forms of brave actions such as military exploits or standing in front of a car to save a child which belief in an afterlife justify.

Quote:

The above seems to me the pragmatic benefit of faith, making the "group" stronger over generations. The curious thing is that it doesn't seem to matter exactly what one has faith in - I forget which Greek philosopher observed that in building a city state it didn't matter exactly what your motto or rallying cry was, so long as you had one.

David: Faith and culture serve this important function of allowing an individual to participate in something bigger which is more powerful and longer lasting than its individual members. I believe that people often neglect the important role of religion in forming and preserving culture throughout history.

Quote:

Do you think there are other reasons why people should believe in life after death?

David: Life after death also allows people to put in perspective all of the stress and troubles of life, bravely facing troubles, illnesses and setbacks because the larger context allows them to see beyond all of the concerns of this life.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

Mageth · 07-09-2002, 01:29 PM

Belief in an afterlife is beneficial to the degree to which it does motivate people to sacrifice their life in defense of others.

I do not believe in an afterlife, yet I would gladly give my life to save my loved ones, and risk my life even to save strangers.

Martyrdom is such a self-sacrifice in which people die in defense of their faith and their fellow believers.

And lacking a belief in an afterlife, I lack that motivation for martyring myself by, say, blowing up thousands of innocents in defense of my "faith."

There are other forms of brave actions such as military exploits or standing in front of a car to save a child which belief in an afterlife justify.

Hence the infamous slogan on Nazi soldiers' belt buckles: "Gott Mitt Uns".

And there are other justifications for performing those actions than a belief in an afterlife. Many non-believers have died in defense of their country and in acts of bravery to save children, for example (the myth "no atheists in foxholes" notwithstanding).

On balance, lacking a belief in an afterlife 1) does not hinder one from self-sacrifice for good causes, e.g. to save a child; and 2) may help prevent one from martyring oneself in a terrorist act in defense of "bad" causes, e.g. religion.

Steven Carr · 07-10-2002, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
Hello Everyone,

I must say that you atheists are not benefiting your cause by attempting to insult or offend Christians and theists. While it may feel good to say something bad about someone else, all of these types of comments are irrelevant distractions relative to the subject under consideration.

There is absolutely no reason at all why Christians and atheists cannot discuss these issues of mutual interest calmly, respectful and peacefully. I believe that atheists should tolerate theists and that theists should tolerate atheists.

Once emotions take over and people begin speaking in an angry manner, reasoned discussion becomes impossible and the discussion generates anger rather than understanding.

Why do you think we are under an obligation to
be reasonable and polite with you?

Vorkosigan · 07-10-2002, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steven Carr:


Why do you think we are under an obligation to
be reasonable and polite with you?

We're under obligation to be reasonable and polite to all our guests. At least, we should strive to live up to those ideals.

Vorkosigan

sidewinder · 07-10-2002, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
Hello John,

David: Life after death also allows people to put in perspective all of the stress and troubles of life, bravely facing troubles, illnesses and setbacks because the larger context allows them to see beyond all of the concerns of this life.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

I think not believing in life after death puts human life into real perspective. I think it helps you focus on what's important in life. Overall, it comes down to facing life realistically, as it presents itself to you, or indulging in religious fantasies which include some kind of blissful afterlife to deal with life.

08-25-2002, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by beachbum:
Good Morning David and all,

There is a very simple philosophy that I read about some months ago. Unfortunately, I do not recall what group it is that holds this belief:
The idea of two deaths. Everyone dies and that is the first death.

They are not truely dead until the last person who can remember them is dead. This is the second and final death.

Interesting.

Stan left us so many gentle words of wisdom, May We all never forget him.

NialScorva · 08-26-2002, 07:46 AM

Well chosen quote. Would you quote this in Misc Discussions? I think a lot of people would enjoy seeing it.

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07-09-2002, 01:29 PM	#25
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Belief in an afterlife is beneficial to the degree to which it does motivate people to sacrifice their life in defense of others. I do not believe in an afterlife, yet I would gladly give my life to save my loved ones, and risk my life even to save strangers. Martyrdom is such a self-sacrifice in which people die in defense of their faith and their fellow believers. And lacking a belief in an afterlife, I lack that motivation for martyring myself by, say, blowing up thousands of innocents in defense of my "faith." There are other forms of brave actions such as military exploits or standing in front of a car to save a child which belief in an afterlife justify. Hence the infamous slogan on Nazi soldiers' belt buckles: "Gott Mitt Uns". And there are other justifications for performing those actions than a belief in an afterlife. Many non-believers have died in defense of their country and in acts of bravery to save children, for example (the myth "no atheists in foxholes" notwithstanding). On balance, lacking a belief in an afterlife 1) does not hinder one from self-sacrifice for good causes, e.g. to save a child; and 2) may help prevent one from martyring oneself in a terrorist act in defense of "bad" causes, e.g. religion.

08-26-2002, 07:46 AM	#30
NialScorva Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Median strip of DC beltway Posts: 1,888	Well chosen quote. Would you quote this in Misc Discussions? I think a lot of people would enjoy seeing it.

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