Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Typhon · 07-12-2002, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Thought this was self explanatory.

Suppose Death Valley is Hell. Some rebel revolts against the government. They send him to Death Valley. Death Valley is punishment. Now some poor bloke who has his head in the sand *moves* to Death Valley. Death Valley is not punishment to him...though it is definitely punishing.
One is punishiment...the other is a choice.
You see no difference here?
SOMMS

What this is honestly, is very daffy logic.

It is amazing to see the rationalization that some modern theists who are justifiably unnerved by the very canonical Biblical Hell, which lays down in no uncertain terms its nature and role in Christian theology, will attempt in order to find a more palatable interpretation of it.

No one "moves" to Hell according to Christian theology and scripture. People are cast into it, thrown in it, forced into it, condemned to it, etc.. It's not like the Bible says that there will be Heaven, Hell, and some nice property in-between and we've all got a choice about where we set up camp for all eternity.

Even if you try to argue that the mythical afterlife of your religion is composed of two regions, Hell and Heaven, it still boils down to good believers being allowed to get into the latter, while non believers are bared from it, and it just happens that it means that they end up in Hell, because that's the only place they can go. This is the same as if they were bodily tossed by angles with flaming swords into the boiling pits.

Likewise with the barmy logic that people "choose" Hell. Hell is not a choice, except in the case of some equally benighted literal (not classical LeVey types) Satanists. Hell is a punishment and the destination of the damned.

I'm not a Christian and even I know that.

.T.

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: Typhon ]

07-12-2002, 03:54 PM

The free will argument is NOT a refutation of the argument from evil. Whatever causal chain leads to perdition, God knows very well what's going on, we, the victims of hell, do not. Putting candy by a cliff

However, logically it is invalid to suppose suffering, even suffering inflicted by God as entertainment for himself, makes God evil. It simply suggests that our suffering is not all that morally significant to God.

It's like a parent who scatters candy and toys by a cliff. It is the free will of the foolish child to take the candy and play with the toys and the loving parent is right to let the children fall over.

At any rate, there are folks carrying signs warning that we're in death vally. According to some of them SOMMS is on the road to hell. Oh look out SOMMS, you'll totally deserve it when your flesh sizzles. Your choice buddy.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 07-12-2002, 04:03 PM

Philosoft

Quote:

Originally posted by Philosoft:
SOMMS,

Ostensibly, God knew he would end up sending heathen souls to hell before he created hell. If what you say is true, then God's use of hell as a punishment is either intended or not intended. If it was not intended, then you now have a situation where God foresaw something that he didn't intend. I sure hope you have something better than "all things are possible..." to explain that one.

SOMMS

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 07-12-2002, 04:09 PM

Typon,

Quote:

Originally posted by Typhon:


No one "moves" to Hell according to Christian theology and scripture. People are cast into it, thrown in it, forced into it, condemned to it, etc..

Why?

Because they have rejected God. Rejecting God is equivalent to 'moving' into Death Valley. It takes a conscious effort to do so.

SOMMS

Samhain · 07-12-2002, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas:
Typon,

Why?

Because they have rejected God. Rejecting God is equivalent to 'moving' into Death Valley. It takes a conscious effort to do so.

SOMMS

No, it can only be a conscious act to "reject" "God" if "God" is proven to exist. If not the argument that we can "reject" something which, to all appearances, does not exist is hardly logical or reasonable.

Philosoft · 07-12-2002, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas:
Philosoft

SOMMS

Well struck, mine foe.

Jeremy Pallant · 07-12-2002, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas:
Suppose Death Valley is Hell. Some rebel revolts against the government. They send him to Death Valley. Death Valley is punishment. Now some poor bloke who has his head in the sand *moves* to Death Valley. Death Valley is not punishment to him...though it is definitely punishing.

I love Death Valley. It is a magnificent place. If I found a software engineering job in Death Valley, I would be in Heaven.

Liquidrage · 07-12-2002, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie_L:
In a recent thread, a counter to why Hitler was allowed to kill millions of people by a supposedly loving God was - otherwise men have no free will.

What I'm about to say may be trite and old-hat. If so, I apologize.

But supposedly God (the Judeo-Christian type, anyway) will condemn such beastly people to hell for asserting their free will, and send those who choose "wisely" to eternal bliss.

What would be the difference if God came out and smote Hitler ten minutes after he'd ordered his firt round of executions? Or even the second he'd committed himself whole-heartedly to the act?

Punishment is punishment, especially when we're talking about punishment for all eternity. What difference does it make if God waits until we die or strikes us down where we stand the moment we transgress? If the threat of eternal torture after we die isn't a violation of free will, why would it be a violation of free will to move that punishment forward a few decades? Or in Hitler's case a few years?

Jamie

Because free will is a scapegoat that allows people to continue to believe in their god as a kind and loving god.

My view is that there is no reason why a creator would have even given mankind the ability to kill. Obviously mankind was not given unlimited capability, so why include that one.

I can't choose to shit dollar bills so why should I be able to choose to kill someone?

Answer: Because we're a product of natural selection not some ancient battle god

Jeremy Pallant · 07-12-2002, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas:
Because they have rejected God. Rejecting God is equivalent to 'moving' into Death Valley. It takes a conscious effort to do so.
SOMMS

To paraphrase another respondant...

Death Valley exists. I've been there.

For your analogy to be correct, God would have to be as real as Death Valley.

According to Christians, you must have faith to believe in God.

I don't need to have faith to believe in the existence of Death Valley, because I've been there.

You explanation is a load of bull-squeezings.

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07-12-2002, 03:54 PM	#12
Synaesthesia Guest Posts: n/a	The free will argument is NOT a refutation of the argument from evil. Whatever causal chain leads to perdition, God knows very well what's going on, we, the victims of hell, do not. Putting candy by a cliff However, logically it is invalid to suppose suffering, even suffering inflicted by God as entertainment for himself, makes God evil. It simply suggests that our suffering is not all that morally significant to God. It's like a parent who scatters candy and toys by a cliff. It is the free will of the foolish child to take the candy and play with the toys and the loving parent is right to let the children fall over. At any rate, there are folks carrying signs warning that we're in death vally. According to some of them SOMMS is on the road to hell. Oh look out SOMMS, you'll totally deserve it when your flesh sizzles. Your choice buddy.

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