Jamie_L

In a recent thread, a counter to why Hitler was allowed to kill millions of people by a supposedly loving God was - otherwise men have no free will.

What I'm about to say may be trite and old-hat. If so, I apologize.

But supposedly God (the Judeo-Christian type, anyway) will condemn such beastly people to hell for asserting their free will, and send those who choose "wisely" to eternal bliss.

What would be the difference if God came out and smote Hitler ten minutes after he'd ordered his firt round of executions? Or even the second he'd committed himself whole-heartedly to the act?

Punishment is punishment, especially when we're talking about punishment for all eternity. What difference does it make if God waits until we die or strikes us down where we stand the moment we transgress? If the threat of eternal torture after we die isn't a violation of free will, why would it be a violation of free will to move that punishment forward a few decades? Or in Hitler's case a few years?

Jamie

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Jamie,

This post actually pertains more to the doctrine of Hell than it does free will and punishment.


Judeo Christian theology holds that hell is punishment for Satan. It is not necessarily a punishment for man. With regards to man, it may be punishing...but it is not a punishment.

This does not mean, however, that if man rejects God (as Satan does) then he won't end up in the same place.

SOMMS

Philosoft

<strong>Quoth SOMMS:

Judeo Christian theology holds that hell is punishment for Satan. It is not necessarily a punishment for man. With regards to man, it may be punishing...but it is not a punishment.

This does not mean, however, that if man rejects God (as Satan does) then he won't end up in the same place</strong>

Good grief, do you use a different brain when you come up with this stuff? How are we to make sense of, "well, it's not a punishment but it's punishing" and "God doesn't send people to hell but they go there anyway"?

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Thought this was self explanatory.


Suppose Death Valley is Hell. Some rebel revolts against the government. They send him to Death Valley. Death Valley is punishment. Now some poor bloke who has his head in the sand *moves* to Death Valley. Death Valley is not punishment to him...though it is definitely punishing.

One is punishiment...the other is a choice.


You see no difference here?

SOMMS

ex-preacher

You can walk out of Death Valley.

Samhain

While I see the difference in your analogy, I think that it does not accurately compare to the ideas of hell or divine punishment, thus is worthless in the context of this discussion.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Hmm...how so?


SOMMS

Samhain

It's simply an oversimplification of the ideas of hell and divine punishment. There are other factors which must be entered into the analogy to make it completely accurate. What stands out in my mind the most is that no one would willingly walk into an eternity of torture. Further, there is overwhelming evidence to suggest that Death Valley exists. The concepts of hell are still in the mythical stage, as it has been since their conception.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Yes.

This is what is known as 'extending the analogy too far'.


SOMMS

Philosoft

SOMMS,

Ostensibly, God knew he would end up sending heathen souls to hell before he created hell. If what you say is true, then God's use of hell as a punishment is either intended or not intended. If it was not intended, then you now have a situation where God foresaw something that he didn't intend. I sure hope you have something better than "all things are possible..." to explain that one.