BLoggins02

dostf: please use the quote feature, it would sure help us separate what you're saying from what you're quoting.

Thanks

dostf

Eric:

I'm glad if my posts were of some benefit to you. What I meant by "outgrowing Christianity" was that your mind no longer was willing to accept that which was against your reason.

And once you start thinking about an organized religion, usually non-belief will come about eventually.(ey)

If only this was the case. Millions believe and some might be described as very intelligent people. It is no small thing to change one's belief system. You are certainly one of a small minority to do so and still continue to have an interest in such things.

It seems you have clarified your own course of action with regards to your friend. Very good! I hope it goes well.

Your friend does seem involved in a cult like group from the characteristics you have described. Perhaps reading up on that subject would be useful to you. Or better yet consult professionals who can give you their opinion of the situation.
In my opinion, anyone who takes money for "truth" or "knowlege" is of low moral character, has a poorly developed conscience or is an outright fraud.

When I talked about studying ancient religions, I try to read and learn about them because I enjoy to.(ey)

Ok, thanks for clarifying.

In case you are interested, I started a thread "truth and related subjects" over in the philosophy forum which may give you an idea of the vantage point I am coming from.

Until next time take care..........

sighhswolf

Eric, hi.
Here's a favorite quote of mine.
I find that it sums up very nicely what I think
of organized religion.
"Believe nothing no matter where you read it,or who said it,no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your common sense."
Buddha

Wolf

dostf

bloggins 02

Sorry about that. I'll try it for my next post.

bltl6

The Bible does tell us to be carful of who we are around because they might bring us down. This is a true statement regardless of your faith. This goes back to our Moms not wanting us to hang out with the "bad" kids. But you're right Eric, the Bible does tell us to be around non-Christians so we can show them Christ (Matt. 28:19-20). A church that size IS, I would say, concerned with "reaching out" to the non-Christian. But I'm sure that the Pastor ddn't mean to never be around non-Christians, but to not ONLY be around non-Christians. Basicaly, don't stop going to chruch. Heb 10:25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another-- and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

The Bible is clear that predictions about the End Times are a waste of time. Matt. 24: 36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, {36 Some manuscripts do not have <nor the Son.>} but only the Father. Some might have theories, but no Christian really knows what will happen in the end, only that Christ will come back. Knowing of Harvest, I would say that Pastor Greg was offering his "interpretation" of the end things. I'm sure he never said anything like "Jesus WILL come back on April 11th, 2002."

I'm not saying that this Church and its Pastor are perfect. I have trouble with any church that is built around the pastor. I'm only bringing a different point of view to the table.

I respect your view and choice to not go to church, but you may want to give another church a try to get another point of view. I could suggest some (churches).

Godless Dave

Bltlt6 has a point. Giving up Christianity altogether might be too frightening for this guy. Taking him to some other churches might show him that you can be Christian without giving up five nights a week or losing your non-Christian friends. Of course he'd be better off if he didn't go to church at all but a mellower, more tolerant brand of Christianity would be better than the crowd he's with now.

Richard1366

WARNING! WARNING! WARNING!

Whatever you do, don't share your friends pitcher of Kool Aid with him....

ohwilleke

Welcome to the Board Eric.

I've heard of the Harvest, which from your description is a prototypical megachurch (not just my term, there is a whole field of sociology of religion about them).

Like most growing churches it demands a lot, gives people lots of things to do, and builds on relationships. People become converts based on social relationships first, and only justify their actions in terms of the doctrine, second. How did you end up at this church? You had a vague feeling and your long time friend whom you had a relationship with mentioned it to you.

Your friend ended up at this church in one of two ways. Number 1: He went with a friend he had, just like you did. Number 2: He went once on a lark, someone introduced themselves and got him to go to one of those small group meetings, and he met people who were interested in him and related to him which kept him in until he was sure he believed.

He will leave one of three ways: Number 1: He will burn out just like you did but more slowly. Churches that have high growth rates and beliefs that mean anything typically "churn" with both high conversion in rates and high dropout rates. Sometimes peole just don't see why to bother anymore. Number 2: He will have some key relationships with people in the group sour, which will leave him open to moving on. Number 3: He will develop a very strong relationship with someone not in the group which will overpower his relationship with people in the group despite his attempts to convert them in.

The five or six nights a week at church work to prevent exit No. 2 and exit No. 3. If you are in four or five different groups, you won't leave just because one or two relationships go bad, because you have lots of positive relationships with people in the church and can afford to lose a few. But, leaving the church will mean giving up all of those positive social relationships and casting away a whole group of friendships is a disincentive to quit when the initial fervor wears off. Also, if you spend most of your free time in church, this means that you are likely to develop new strong relationships with people in the church, instead of people outside the church, which prevents a new person from drawing you out of the church. Sounds tough to get someone out of it? It is, which is why these churches are grown and not shrinking.

But, if you want to make an impact you have to realize that him staying or going has nothing to do with the content of the sermons. The pastor could be preaching about the coming of the UFOs instead of the return of Christ, and it wouldn't make a meaningful difference.

The line about "We hurt ourselves if we separate ourselves from God's people.", is true and very close to the core of what keeps this organization going, so long as you understand that the first "we" refers to the organization, and the second "we" refers to the individual members of the organization.

[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: ohwilleke ]</p>

Koyaanisqatsi

Well stated, ohwilleke.

Eric, IMO (in my opinion), your friend is there, most likely, because he needs to belong to a community that he perceives "matters" so that, in turn, he matters too.

All cults work that way to some degree; empowering the followers to think that, because of the community they've all built, they will all therefore be more important; they're a part of something and it has a pretty facade.

You might want to start (slowly) peeling that facade away in various subtle ways (it has to be subtle, or he'll get defensive and it will backfire). Start by letting it be known to him why you left; it will probably start a conversation that, if you're not carefull, will escalate into an "us vs. them" reaction, but it will also afford you the opportunity to begin his deprogramming, since that's exactly what you'll have to do.

By the way, all religions are, in fact, cults. Trust me on this one, I've had a lot of experience with this point.

It doesn't matter how big it is or "established" or any of that nonsense; they all operate the exact same way and they are all exceedingly difficult for most to deprogram themselves from.

That wasn't grammatically correct, but you get the point. You will have to deprogram him from the sounds of it and if you do consider yourself to be his friend, the sooner you start, the better.

Peel back that facade and show him the difference between spirituality and snake-oil salesmen.

Good luck and welcome!

ImGod

ohwilleke & Koy are right. My wife and I belong to the United Methodist Cult.. I mean Church. They were much more covert in their indoctrination, but as effective in the end.

All of the friends we rely on belong to the groups in the church. It draws you into the organization by mixing the members into your personal life.

I've mentally given up my affiliation with the church and it's philosophies, but the friendships are harder. I'm beginning to dislike my interaction with my friends because of the lack of critical thinking they apply to life. Trust god is the standard answer. The three times I've attended a group meeting this year have been like talking with a group of small children. It's frustrating and sad. I won't kid myself into believing that the majority of my "friends" would have contact with me if I told them I was an atheist. They pray for people like me all the time.

I'm moving my family to get closer to my extended family. This time, I'm going to be more careful in chosing friends that better fit my personality.