Methos

This is my first post here, but I've been reading threads for about a month, as well as doing some posting on other religion and spirituality forums. I figured this was a good enough forum to post this. So, let me give an introduction to myself in addition to the topic that I want to discuss. The first thing I was to make clear is that I'm not a Christian, and then work from there. The first few paragraphs about my spiritual history are probably going to be copy-and-paste from posts I've made elsewhere, so forgive me if some things are repeated.

I'm currently 22 years old and never grew up going to church. Early last year I felt a desire to try to find more meaning in life, so I decided to go to a contemporary Christian church where my best friend had been going for a couple months. The first time I went was on April 1, 2001. It's seemed really cool and interesting, so I became a regular. But after the first month or so, I stopped feeling like I was getting anything out of it. Basically I was going through the motions of getting up on Sunday, going to church, coming home, and not thinking about it until the following Sunday. The first weekend in August I went to Las Vegas, so I didn't go to church that Sunday, and I haven't been back since.

There wasn't really one moment when I decided "this isn't for me", it was more that the novelty of it all just wore off. So, for a couple months I didn't really give religion or spirituality much thought. But after 9/11 and then an assignment about my views on various issues that I had to do for a class, I began to examine my life and the way I viewed the world. What I did was turn to the internet as well as other sources for answers. Now I try to make my decisions by taking in all outside factors. I don't shut myself off to anyone and anything that does not conform to what "the Bible says" or "the church says." I would argue that many theists do just what you said non-believers do, and cut themselves off from everything that might not be directly connected to their religion and their religion's beliefs.

For me, I open myself up to people and ideas of all faiths and practices. I read about Christianity, and talk about religion and spirituality with Christians. But I also read about modern religions like Islam, Hinduism, Confucianism, and others. In addition, I read about and study the ancient religions of Greece, Rome, Egypt, Mesopotamia, and the Vikings. I go to websites about deism, atheism, Christian deism, pantheism, and panentheism. I won't claim that I've studied every one of those religions or ideas in great detail (but some I have), but I have exposed myself to each and every one of them.

I take everything that I read, hear, observe, and experience into account when I formulate my beliefs. If I wanted to shut myself off from the opinions of the rest of the world, why would I visit forums like this in the hopes of finding intelligent conversation and debate? I can't state for certain what I believe at this very moment. I'm not even certain of what I believed yesterday. And I can state with certainty that I don't know what I will believe tomorrow. What is important to me is that I consider my entire life to be an exercise in spiritual growth. I will never know the answers, nor does anyone else on this tiny planet.

So that's a brief (well, somewhat ) introduction to myself. What I wanted to talk about with people who have more experience being ex-Christians (or recovering Christians) than I have.

As I said at the beginning of this post, I went to a contemporary Christian church (off-shoot of the Calvary Chapels) for 4 months last year. I went in with an open mind, and continued going until the novelty wore off and I felt like I was getting nothing from it. Huge doesn't even begin to describe this church. Over 5000something people go through the doors for the various Sunday services. They hold yearly "crusades" at a baseball stadium where 150,000 people went last year. The annual budget is well over $5 million. And, well, let me put this bluntly--it's a cult. The friend who brought me there (I've known him since 9th grade, and we're now seniors in college) has recently become heavily involved with the church. I've discussed this with some of our mutual friends at great length, and we can't come up with a good reason why he's gone so hardcore lately. But back to the "cult" statement. Most everyone is there because of the pastor. While I found him entertaining and funny, there are hundreds (if not thousands) there who worship the ground he walks on. I just wonder how far people would follow him. It worries me when nearly every sermon includes "The end is coming soon."

That being said, as part of my attempt to understand why my friend has basically forsaken everything and everyone around him for this church, I went to their website and listened to the Good Friday, Easter morning, and Easter night services from last week. As I've said, I went to this church for 4 months. I missed a couple Sunday mornings, but went to a Good Friday and a Sunday night, so let's say that I heard 15 sermons. Well, those three that I listened to online were three that I had already heard, and I'm pretty damn sure they were word-for-word. I realize that there's not always going to be original sermons (what, with having to ignore most of the OT because of the evil/murdering God, and ignoring much of the NT because of its contradictions), but to have the same three replayed within a year, that seems a little strange to me. And they were all the same thing: Jesus is coming back soon, very soon. I did learn that the person that eventually brings peace to the Middle East will be the Antichrist. That's good to know....sheesh. The big thing that I learned was the reason why my friend has distanced himself from most of his longtime friends. The pastor said "we hurt ourselves when we separate ourselves from God's people." I don't remember his exact words for what the rest of his thought was, but the gist was that it's when you're not with fellow Christians that Satan will use that opportunity to influence you and take you away from the church. That sure explains why my friend is at some Christian-related thing five or six nights a week. But, doesn't that run contrary to what Christianity is supposed to be about? Aren't Christians supposed to spend time with non-believers to preach the Gospels and "show them the way"? Again, I just can't believe that I heard the same three identical sermons that I was there for last year. I just don't get it <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> . Not all of Christianity is a cult, but this one sure seems to be.

Thanks in advance for reading this. And thanks in advance for any thoughts and ideas that you might have. I look forward to reading and posting more here at Internet Infidels.

Eric

[ April 08, 2002: Message edited by: Eric Yauger ]</p>

Toto

Welcome to the boards and congratulations on an intelligent and important first post. (I predict it will be moved to Miscellaneous Religious Discussions - don't feel that is a comment on its quality.)

You call this a "contemporary" church, but it sounds more primintive and fundamentalist than "contemporary."

It also sounds like a cult. Do you know if this church stockpiled supplies for Y2K?

I would be interested on your take on this thread:
<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000160" target="_blank">Are Fundamentalist Christians trying to force the rapture?</a> Some of the links there talk about millenarianists, dispensationalists, etc. I have trouble keeping them straight.

Methos

Thanks. If it gets moved, that's fine by me . I wasn't really sure where this would go because it's both an introduction, that is also questioning Christianity. So, Misc sounds good.

The reason I used the term "contemporary" is because it's not very formal (in my opinion) in its worship. People come dressed however they want, and the music is Christian rock.

Since you're in the Los Angeles area, maybe you'll be familiar with it. It's called Harvest and is in Riverside, but also apparently has offices in Anaheim.

</strong>

I have no idea if they stockpiled or not. That was before both my time there (April-July 2001) as well as my friend's (started in January 2001). Wouldn't really surprise me.

Maybe I'm overreacting by using the term "cult." If this were a small little church then people might treat it as such. But this is a huge corporate church. Like I said, thousands to every Sunday. There are also nightly Bible studies or "fellowships." There's the "crusades" at Anaheim Stadium (as well as smaller ones during the year). It's hard to use a term like "cult" for something that is so large, but from my experiences it's not entirely inappropriate.

</strong>

I'll take a look at it. Thanks,
Eric

dostf

Eric:

Enjoyed reading your post!

The process you are currently exploring which involves becoming knowlegable about many religious/spiritual paths is certainly useful.
We cannot dismiss or agree for that matter, that which we do not know. As this can be a long and difficult task, here are a few suggestions,

Try to focus on the basics, there are so many "ways" available that in depth analysis would take more than a lifetime. ex. What are the basic tenents of Christianity? (i assume you know from your thread) and ask are they reasonable/logical? if so, delve a little more-which leads to my second suggestion-

Don't "believe" anything anyone tells you- verify for yourself using your reason- or better yet "live" it yourself and then draw conclusions.

If someone tells you " you just don't understand" or "later it will make sense", or something of that like, it is to be avoided in my opinion.(your questions merit a reasonable/logical/understanable response)

Knowledge/ideas/information is reasonable or not-try to separate it from the person giving it to you regardless of age/gender/etc.

As for your friend, speaking to "devoted" persons like himself is difficult to put it mildly. However, he is your friend. I think i will leave this alone as any suggestion i have for you may lead to further difficulties.

I hope this reply was of some use to you.

Methos

Dostf,

I definitely don't believe anything that anybody tells me if they have nothing to back things up. If their response is "it's in the Bible" (or any other religious text), I take everything they say with a heavy grain of salt.

I've said to people before that the teachings of Jesus (or Buddha or most religious figures) are usually a wonderful thing designed to make people's lives better. But when you begin to set rules governing how people should live, while at the same time condemning those who don't believe the same way, that's what I have a problem with.

Before I went to church, I considered myself a "non-practicing, non-denominational Christian." When I started going, I felt I was a "learning Christian." And when I stopped, I became a "recovering Christian." I went to church trying to find some direction in my life, but I never found that there. It wasn't until I left and began to analyze religion and spirituality that I began to find some answers.

I'm not sure what I believed yesterday, I don't know what I believe today, and I damn sure don't know what I'll believe tomorrow. I consider my entire life to be a spiritual learning exercise. Maybe I'll come closer to finding the "truth," maybe I won't. What I know for sure is that I will never take anyone's "word for it." I will listen and analyze what they say, but I will come to my own conclusions. I would say the possibility that I ever consider myself religious again is about 0.1%, but I don't know for sure.

As far as my friend goes, please don't feel like you should hold off your opinions and suggestions. One of the reasons why I posted this was to hear from third-parties what they would do. From the people that I've talked to, they seem to think that he'll eventually grow out of it because nobody seems to really be sure of his reasons for going to so much so fast. I've never had an problems discussing anything with him in the past, but religion is something totally different. I have never discussed with him why I stopped going to that church. I have with several other people, but never him because I wasn't sure how he'd react. I just figured that eventually I'd bring it up since I saw him all the time, but now he's become almost isolated from everyone who's been friends with him for years because of the church. Should I talk to him about why I stopped going, and then judge how things are going to see if I take it any further? Or should I just ignore it and see where he goes with his religious participation? What would your do if you were in this situation?

Anyway, I'm glad that you enjoyed my post. I was worried that it would be too long and too rambling to be understood . Thanks for the input, I really appreciate it.

Eric

Boshko

Hmmmm, welcome forum seems to be the best place for this as far as I can tell...

Godless Dave

Cult, cult, cult. Pressuring members to only associate with other members is a big warning sign, as is predicting the end of the world in the near future and rallying around a very charismatic leader. Is your friend giving money to this church?

missus_gumby

I'm moving this thread to <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=45" target="_blank">Misc Religious Discussions</a>, because it will find a better home there!

However, welcome to you Eric, enjoy your stay, and don't hesitate to ask questions or even browse the <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/index.html" target="_blank">library</a>.

Martin

[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: missus_gumby ]</p>

dostf

Eric Yauger:

Here are a few thoughts from your last post..


If their response is "it's in the Bible" (or any other religious text), I take everything they say with a heavy grain of salt.(ey)

OK, then you decide if it makes sense to you or not. I would suggest reading any "holy" book by taking the "holy" out of it, and read it as you might any other book- critically and reasonably

I've said to people before that the teachings of Jesus (or Buddha or most religious figures) are usually a wonderful thing designed to make people's lives better. But when you begin to set rules governing how people should live, while at the same time condemning those who don't believe the same way, that's what I have a problem with.(ey)

Unfortunately you can't separate the two. Those teachings were designed for humans thousands of years ago with the available knowledge of that time. Again i suggest reading the bible or other religious text as you might any other book. You may surprise yourself as to what is really there.

Should I talk to him about why I stopped going, and then judge how things are going to see if I take it any further? Or should I just ignore it and see where he goes with his religious participation? What would your do if you were in this situation?(ey)

Since you ask, here are a few thoughts.

First, despite the fact you have been friends for years, this does not mean this friendship will continue forever. I know its sad to say this but people grow and change particularly in their 20's.
This is not to say you should not be friends anymore or "give up", but is really just a fact of life we all experience i think.

If you do decide to talk to him about the religion issue here are a few thoughts...

First as your friends suggest he may just grow out of it (as you apparently have), and your friendship would continue as before.
It is my opinion that if a person is firmly rooted in a belief system, the chances of changing those views are very small-unless that person has some distisfaction with thier beliefs as they relate to their living.
If this is the case the chances of discussing that topic will meet with less resistance.

If you decide that this is the case, I would suggest going over parts in the bible that do not seem reasonable to you and discuss them. I would note here it is your resonsibility to be as "bible literate" as your friend in order to be able to converse intelligently. Again take what is written there (the bible) as it is stated as this is what your friends beliefs are based on.
(ex. here is what is stated-here's my issues with that)

Finally, i would say one more thing about this. To take away anothers belief system can be very "trying" and possibly hurtful to that person unless you have something to offer that will take its place. An analogy of this is if someone is living in very bad housing conditions. We observe this and state "get out there the place is awful". They might respond "well it certainly is better than living in the street". "do you know of a better place to live than where I'm staying now?"

Whatever you decide i hope it works out for the both of you. I would be interested to know as many of us face this situation at one time or another i think.

Methos

I'm glad that my post finally found a home in the Miscellaneous Religious forum . This is probably the best place for it anyway. I want to first thank everyone for their welcomes and their responses. It feels good to be able to talk to people around the world about these kinds of topics. Anyway, before I go into some general thoughts, let me respond to a couple specific things from people.

I'm glad that someone else thought that the idea of church members associating only with other church members as being a bad, bad thing. Not to mention the charismatic leader and weekly predicting of the world ending soon. These things fit the classic definition of a cult, but I doubt anybody ever looks as this church as such a thing because of how many thousands of people go there. But like I said in a previous post, most people wouldn't be there if it wasn't for the pastor. He's the one that founded the church 20something years ago, and it's grown to be the conglomerate that it is now. If this were a known denomination with years of traditions and a national body of the church, that would be one thing. But a huge nondenominational church that seems to be focused on rapid growth, large donations, and separation from non-Christians is another.

As far as him giving money to this church, that's the one good thing about him being a college student with no job who lives off of financial aid and student loans. When I went with him, he would give a dollar or two a week. Now, he probably gives more (if only because of the fact he's going to something nearly every night of the week), but he doesn't have much to give from so the amounts are probably small.

I totally understand that is a very distinct possibility. If religion is going to end our friendship, then so be it. But I'm not going to let it go without trying to do something about it. I don't think this church is a good place to be, and I'm going to at least try to let him know why I feel that way. I would rather have our friendship end because I offended his religious beliefs, then sit idly by as he throws his life away. Hopefully even if he tells me to get the hell out of his life, maybe I will have pointed out some flaws in his religion that he'll think about somewhere down the line. As I mentioned, I've discussed him at length with our friends, and they're just as concerned as I am.

I've always felt that religion can usually be a positive aspect in somebody's life. But when it forces them to throw everything aside that has been important to them for their entire life, then it doesn't seem so positive anymore. It bugs me when I hear Christians say things like "every day is a struggle to live the way God intends." That just doesn't make any sense to me. Why would anyone want to spend every single day of their one and only life worrying about the approval of a god that almost certainly doesn't exist? Enjoy life and make the most of it, because nobody knows if there is anything after (and there probably isn't). But that's another subject for another time .

Dostf, you helped me clarify how I should approach him. I had thought that when I talked to him about it, that I would just bring up the subject and see where we go from there. But you're right, I have to prepare in advance the problems I have with the church (and Christianity in general) and have something to back me up. I don't know if it will have any positive (from my POV) effect, but I hope to plant seeds that will cause him to start thinking about the Bible and the church's doctrines. And once you start thinking about an organized religion, usually non-belief will come about eventually.

I also want to clarify things that I said in previous posts, because I'm wondering if maybe I wasn't totally clear. When I talked about studying ancient religions, I try to read and learn about them because I enjoy to. I don't look at anything ancient I read as "religious," because they are just stories about mythology. I pretty much do approach them as just another book, but I do take into account the religious impact they had on their societies. If I find something interesting in them, then I try to analyze it in its context and its historical value.

Also, I don't think that I "outgrew" Christianity. I never really knew what it meant to be a Christian until I went to church, and even more until I stopped going. Looking back, I don't think that I ever really believed anything that I was taught there. I wanted to believe, but I just couldn't allow myself to because it went against every ounce of reason and common sense in my body. I don't know how much longer I would have gone if I hadn't spent a weekend in Vegas and realized how much I didn't miss getting up and hearing things that didn't make sense to me. I doubt that I would have gone much longer, but Vegas provided me with the opportunity and I'm glad it did.

Right now, I can't see any point in the future when I will ever turn to any kind of "revealed" religion ever again. And the more I think about it, I keep moving away from a panentheistic view of the universe and am falling in line more with pantheism. Maybe saying that there's a difference between pantheism and atheism is splitting hairs, but we can discuss that another time . I tend to think that there's a divine quality to the universe that nobody can understand. But I really have it hard to believe in any kind of "god," unless by god you mean the universe. It's entirely possible that I might eventually end up in the atheist camp because that's the direction I seem to be heading, but I don't know. What I do know is that I'm happier with myself, my place in the universe, and my worldview than I ever have been.

Thanks for the comments and advice,
Eric