Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Nataraja · 11-05-2002, 08:45 PM

Go ahead and tell your wife that you're Satan's right-hand man. She's eventually going to convince herself of it anyway, so you might just as well have a little fun with her instead of going through the headache of trying to convince her otherwise.

Blankman · 11-05-2002, 09:12 PM

---"...and tells him that she cannot stay married to an atheist."

Huh? Why Not????? Why do people have to agree on the same things? Would she divorce you for belonging to the opposing political party?

--------------------------------------------------
Variation in divorce rates among Christian faith groups:
(in order of decreasing divorce rate) % who have been divorced

Non-denominational (small groups; independents) 34%
Baptists 29%
Mainline Protestants 25%
Mormons 24%
Catholics 21%
Lutherans 21%

Variation in divorce rates by religion:
% have been divorced

Jews 30%
Born-again Christians 27%
Other Christians 24%
Atheists, Agnostics 21%

---Barna's results verified findings of earlier polls: that conservative Protestant Christians, on average, have the highest divorce rate, while mainline Christians have a much lower rate. They found some new information as well: that atheists and agnostics have the lowest divorce rate of all. George Barna commented that the results raise "questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families." The data challenge "the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriage."

Donald Hughes, author of The Divorce Reality, said: "In the churches, people have a superstitious view that Christianity will keep them from divorce, but they are subject to the same problems as everyone else, and they include a lack of relationship skills. ...Just being born again is not a rabbit's foot." Hughes claim that 90% of divorces among born-again couples occur after they have been "saved."
--------------------------------------------------

Hmmmm. I find this study rather interesting. Now which group is suppose to have the highest moral standard?

Blankman · 11-05-2002, 09:24 PM

Let's see now, christianity is suppose to be a peaceful, considerate, understanding religion? But look how it can turn two people against each other, let alone entire nations. Oooooh, but christianity is not responsible for any wars,etc., right? Uh huh. How sad.

Good luck x-xian. I feel your frustration. I hope things settle down for you. The best advice I've seen so far is to stay calm. If you wrestle a pig...you're gonna get muddy.

captainpabst · 11-06-2002, 12:10 AM

x-xian: I've been reading brettc's thread as well as your own, and it's hard to do anything but hang my head in sorrow for you guys. I think you've both received some top-notch advice from the II forum members. Nevertheless, it's always more difficult dealing with a real live person than it is reasoning out the situation in your own mind, or on a discussion board.

I only have one suggestion, and it may or may not work for you. I am a non-believer, but I recently attended a Unitarian Universalist service just to see what the deal was. <a href="http://www.tvuuc.org/" target="_blank">This</a> one, in fact. I was really pleased with what went on there. The 'service' was nothing like a worship service - more like advice on living, sharing experiences, very secular-humanist, life-support-group-ish. I left with a very positive feeling. I felt as though I didn't have to compromise my beliefs or lack thereof at all, and that the goal of the organization was to promote peace, understanding, open-mindedness, and goodwill - without any judeo-christian baggage. At 'sunday school' at that 'church', children learn about all religions in an historical way; there really is no indoctrination. I'm neither married or have children, but I feel like if I had kids, I would bring them up in the UU church. That way none of their peers can say, "you don't go to church, you must be evil!" And let's face it, they are going to be exposed to religion in one way or another - why not let them be exposed in a non-threatening, non-indoctrinating educational manner? It seems to me this would give them a solid, issue-free platform from which to choose their own path.

Anyway, I don't mean to give a sales pitch here, it's just that I was impressed with the particular UU church I attended, and possibly, if there's one near you, it could work out as a compromise.

Good luck. I, like all here, feel for you.

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: captainpabst ]

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: captainpabst ]

HelenM · 11-06-2002, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by captainpabst:
Anyway, I don't mean to give a sales pitch here, it's just that I was impressed with the particular UU church I attended, and possibly, if there's one near you, it could work out as a compromise.

The problem is that there wouldn't be all this conflict in the first place if the Christian spouse was flexible enough that they'd do something like go to a UU congregation. Most conservative Christians wouldn't want to give up going to a place that teaches the Bible as the Word of God. And they wouldn't want their children going somewhere that doesn't, either, with their non-Christian spouse.

All I'm trying to do in saying this is point out that this might be something very hard for the Christian spouse to agree to.

I've been to one of the local UU congregations and the people were very friendly and I understand why they prefer it to attending a conservative Christian church, say...

take care
Helen

HelenM · 11-06-2002, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nataraja:
Go ahead and tell your wife that you're Satan's right-hand man. She's eventually going to convince herself of it anyway, so you might just as well have a little fun with her instead of going through the headache of trying to convince her otherwise.

I'm not sure how this is meant - but personally I think it's a great idea if you can use humor to lighten things up. If your wife has a sense of humor and you can get her to laugh at how ridiculous it is, to think now you're a declared atheist you're going to change in some extreme ways, it might even help her to see her fears are unfounded.

However, if she doesn't have a sense of humor it might make things worse...

My [atheist] husband teases me about church if I bring the subject up - always has done. I guess if I didn't want to be teased I married the wrong person

take care
Helen

Vicar Philip · 11-06-2002, 09:04 AM

This is infuriating.

Last night my wife laid a new one on me. Two months ago, we were having some other problems with our church, not related to the current brouhaha. I wanted to try a bigger, newer, more kid-oriented Methodist church north of us, where I could also play bass in the band every other Sunday. She wouldn't go, saying that if she did, the people who were causing problems in our (her, I should say) present church would have won. So she refused to go and even try it.

She tells me now that one of the "leaders" of the church is getting more involved with the kids' Sunday School classes, and she can't stand this particular woman. So, guess what? She wants to take the kids to this other church that I had fucking begged her to try no more than two months ago. I asked her every Sunday for a month to go, and she wouldn't do it.

It seems obvious to me she is desperately hanging this "carrot" out on a stick, thinking that since I wanted to go to that church so bad a short time ago, now I'll go back on everything I've said and Praise the Almighty God!!!! It ain't gonna happen. I've been "ruined" by this web site and all the other multitudes of articles I've devoured in the short space of time since my deconversion. So sorry, she done burned that bridge.

So, I guess I have a little bittersweet satisfaction in her desire to now change churches. Whether she really does or not is yet to be seen, but I told her emphatically that I wouldn't be joining them.

Kind of scary to think how easy it would be to conform, but I have this feeling in my gut that will NOT allow me to go back to that way of thinking. I don't buy any of it.

STILL an x-xian

BadBadBad · 11-06-2002, 02:55 PM

I don't see why you should conform. You can't participate in church and pretend to believe. As a non-believer, your not going to fit in at church. It's rediculous to put up a farse just to have your wife avoid being embarrassed about you not coming to church. That's definitely one of her drivers. Plus, she'll be pretty embarrassed if you throw up or pick fights with the Sunday school leader. You don't believe. Why fight about it? This is the way it is. Deal with it.

Over time, she's going to recognize that it's not the end of the world. I'm going through the same thing, only I am being more "controlling" by interferring with the kids going to church. You don't even seem to be trying to control her. It's just not the end of the world. Plenty of people believe in God, but they don't go to church. They don't judge non-believers. They don't go around dumping friends and family because they don't believe. Somebody mentioned just dismissing the whole controversy as silly. I like that.

Let's get on with our lives recognizing that what we have here on Earth is crucial. That's not so "un-christian" is it? She'd have a hard time arguing with that combined with Helen's comments on a christian wife's responsibilities.

Somewhere in there are the kids. That's where it gets interesting. She loses that one too though. Don't they have free will? Even if you set a bad example? Even if you sour them with satan's skepticism? Don't they still have the same free choice you made? So why is it so important that they get the upright god fearing family/church life? What kind of christian family values does she demonstrate to the kids by divorcing you? That's some example for them alright. What hypocrites they are!

Goliath · 11-07-2002, 09:28 AM

Natarja said,

Quote:

Go ahead and tell your wife that you're Satan's right-hand man. She's eventually going to convince herself of it anyway, so you might just as well have a little fun with her instead of going through the headache of trying to convince her otherwise.

To which Helen replied:

Quote:

I'm not sure how this is meant

What I think Natarja meant (and Natarja can certainly correct me if I'm wrong) is that x-xian's wife will eventually be convinced that her husband is an agent of satan. So, it might be beneficial for x-xian to just tell his wife that he is, indeed, working for satan so that his wife can respond in the following predictable manner:

"GET THEE BEHIND ME, SATAN!!! I HAVE THE POWER OF GOD ON MY SIDE! IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST, I REBUKE YOU! LEAVE RIGHT NOW OR I WILL RIP YOUR STILL-BEATING, ICHOR-FILLED HEART FROM YOUR CHEST SO THAT GOD MAY PUNISH YOU IN HELL FOREVER!! WHEN I'M IN HEAVEN, I WILL ENJOY WATCHING YOUR FLESH SIZZLE AND YOUR EYEBALLS BOIL OUT OF THEIR SOCKETS!!!"

....blech!

It's easy--and sickening--to play theist.

Sincerely,

Goliath

HelenM · 11-07-2002, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath:
WHEN I'M IN HEAVEN, I WILL ENJOY WATCHING YOUR FLESH SIZZLE AND YOUR EYEBALLS BOIL OUT OF THEIR SOCKETS!!!"

....blech!

It's easy--and sickening--to play theist.

It might be easy to caricature Christians but that doesn't mean it's accurate or helpful. Speaking for myself I've never met a Christian who has expressed anything other than concern over people going to hell.

I wish we could stick to discussing peoples' real experiences with Christians. I don't see how posting caricatures this unrealistic is going to provide help and supportto x-xian.

Helen

11-06-2002, 12:10 AM	#34
captainpabst Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 200	x-xian: I've been reading brettc's thread as well as your own, and it's hard to do anything but hang my head in sorrow for you guys. I think you've both received some top-notch advice from the II forum members. Nevertheless, it's always more difficult dealing with a real live person than it is reasoning out the situation in your own mind, or on a discussion board. I only have one suggestion, and it may or may not work for you. I am a non-believer, but I recently attended a Unitarian Universalist service just to see what the deal was. <a href="http://www.tvuuc.org/" target="_blank">This</a> one, in fact. I was really pleased with what went on there. The 'service' was nothing like a worship service - more like advice on living, sharing experiences, very secular-humanist, life-support-group-ish. I left with a very positive feeling. I felt as though I didn't have to compromise my beliefs or lack thereof at all, and that the goal of the organization was to promote peace, understanding, open-mindedness, and goodwill - without any judeo-christian baggage. At 'sunday school' at that 'church', children learn about all religions in an historical way; there really is no indoctrination. I'm neither married or have children, but I feel like if I had kids, I would bring them up in the UU church. That way none of their peers can say, "you don't go to church, you must be evil!" And let's face it, they are going to be exposed to religion in one way or another - why not let them be exposed in a non-threatening, non-indoctrinating educational manner? It seems to me this would give them a solid, issue-free platform from which to choose their own path. Anyway, I don't mean to give a sales pitch here, it's just that I was impressed with the particular UU church I attended, and possibly, if there's one near you, it could work out as a compromise. Good luck. I, like all here, feel for you. [ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: captainpabst ] [ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: captainpabst ]</p>

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11-05-2002, 08:45 PM	#31
Nataraja Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NC Posts: 433	Go ahead and tell your wife that you're Satan's right-hand man. She's eventually going to convince herself of it anyway, so you might just as well have a little fun with her instead of going through the headache of trying to convince her otherwise.

11-05-2002, 09:12 PM	#32
Blankman Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Midwest Posts: 41	---"...and tells him that she cannot stay married to an atheist." Huh? Why Not????? Why do people have to agree on the same things? Would she divorce you for belonging to the opposing political party? -------------------------------------------------- Variation in divorce rates among Christian faith groups: (in order of decreasing divorce rate) % who have been divorced Non-denominational (small groups; independents) 34% Baptists 29% Mainline Protestants 25% Mormons 24% Catholics 21% Lutherans 21% Variation in divorce rates by religion: % have been divorced Jews 30% Born-again Christians 27% Other Christians 24% Atheists, Agnostics 21% ---Barna's results verified findings of earlier polls: that conservative Protestant Christians, on average, have the highest divorce rate, while mainline Christians have a much lower rate. They found some new information as well: that atheists and agnostics have the lowest divorce rate of all. George Barna commented that the results raise "questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families." The data challenge "the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriage." Donald Hughes, author of The Divorce Reality, said: "In the churches, people have a superstitious view that Christianity will keep them from divorce, but they are subject to the same problems as everyone else, and they include a lack of relationship skills. ...Just being born again is not a rabbit's foot." Hughes claim that 90% of divorces among born-again couples occur after they have been "saved." -------------------------------------------------- Hmmmm. I find this study rather interesting. Now which group is suppose to have the highest moral standard?

11-05-2002, 09:24 PM	#33
Blankman Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Midwest Posts: 41	Let's see now, christianity is suppose to be a peaceful, considerate, understanding religion? But look how it can turn two people against each other, let alone entire nations. Oooooh, but christianity is not responsible for any wars,etc., right? Uh huh. How sad. Good luck x-xian. I feel your frustration. I hope things settle down for you. The best advice I've seen so far is to stay calm. If you wrestle a pig...you're gonna get muddy.

11-06-2002, 09:04 AM	#37
Vicar Philip Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Cozy little chapel of me own Posts: 1,162	This is infuriating. Last night my wife laid a new one on me. Two months ago, we were having some other problems with our church, not related to the current brouhaha. I wanted to try a bigger, newer, more kid-oriented Methodist church north of us, where I could also play bass in the band every other Sunday. She wouldn't go, saying that if she did, the people who were causing problems in our (her, I should say) present church would have won. So she refused to go and even try it. She tells me now that one of the "leaders" of the church is getting more involved with the kids' Sunday School classes, and she can't stand this particular woman. So, guess what? She wants to take the kids to this other church that I had fucking begged her to try no more than two months ago. I asked her every Sunday for a month to go, and she wouldn't do it. It seems obvious to me she is desperately hanging this "carrot" out on a stick, thinking that since I wanted to go to that church so bad a short time ago, now I'll go back on everything I've said and Praise the Almighty God!!!! It ain't gonna happen. I've been "ruined" by this web site and all the other multitudes of articles I've devoured in the short space of time since my deconversion. So sorry, she done burned that bridge. So, I guess I have a little bittersweet satisfaction in her desire to now change churches. Whether she really does or not is yet to be seen, but I told her emphatically that I wouldn't be joining them. Kind of scary to think how easy it would be to conform, but I have this feeling in my gut that will NOT allow me to go back to that way of thinking. I don't buy any of it. STILL an x-xian

11-06-2002, 02:55 PM	#38
BadBadBad Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: WHERE GOD IS NOT!!!!! Posts: 4,338	I don't see why you should conform. You can't participate in church and pretend to believe. As a non-believer, your not going to fit in at church. It's rediculous to put up a farse just to have your wife avoid being embarrassed about you not coming to church. That's definitely one of her drivers. Plus, she'll be pretty embarrassed if you throw up or pick fights with the Sunday school leader. You don't believe. Why fight about it? This is the way it is. Deal with it. Over time, she's going to recognize that it's not the end of the world. I'm going through the same thing, only I am being more "controlling" by interferring with the kids going to church. You don't even seem to be trying to control her. It's just not the end of the world. Plenty of people believe in God, but they don't go to church. They don't judge non-believers. They don't go around dumping friends and family because they don't believe. Somebody mentioned just dismissing the whole controversy as silly. I like that. Let's get on with our lives recognizing that what we have here on Earth is crucial. That's not so "un-christian" is it? She'd have a hard time arguing with that combined with Helen's comments on a christian wife's responsibilities. Somewhere in there are the kids. That's where it gets interesting. She loses that one too though. Don't they have free will? Even if you set a bad example? Even if you sour them with satan's skepticism? Don't they still have the same free choice you made? So why is it so important that they get the upright god fearing family/church life? What kind of christian family values does she demonstrate to the kids by divorcing you? That's some example for them alright. What hypocrites they are!

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