Vorkosigan

You're upset when a majority of the programming is decided by what a majority would like to view and hear?

As I recall, this democracy has already decided that the government must remain nuetral between religions. Thus, your "majority" has already been trumped by the democratic process at work.

Gurdur

A bit off-topic, mind you, but as someone who listens to both the American armed forces radio and the British armed forces radio (BFBS) in Germany, I can assure you the Brits are a hell of a lot funnier, and less serious and upright, somehow.

fromtheright

Interesting how, in what you guys call debate, my majority has quotes put around it. That doesn't change the fact, however much you may not accept it, that the programming is largely based on ratings. And I'll bet it really es (sorry, I've got an Internet filter on my computer that won't let me post the word "p--s"; yeah, it seems stupid to me too) liberal atheists off that Rush Limbaugh is favored in those ratings and that programming.

As to neutrality, the chaplaincy represents several different religions; thus it is difficult to see how an establishment of religion is threatened.

While I am otherwise a big fan of James Madison, I think he was wrong about a chaplaincy. His interpretation was obviously soundly defeated (you know, part of that democratic process thing).

[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: fromtheright ]</p>

Megatron

AAAAHHHHHHH!!!! NOOOOOOOO!!!

(horrible AFN flashbacks from late nights in England watching football set in)

Ahhhh Make it STOP!!!!

Strelnieks

Here's the weblink in case anyone is interested in seeing your tax dollars at work in the name of the LORD:

<a href="http://www.afneurope.army.mil/Chaplain/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.afneurope.army.mil/Chaplain/index.htm</a>

The section "A touch of grace" is especially amusing. He is one of the broadcasts in full:

"“Ask Not, Have Not”

Tuesday, February 26, 2002

When Erick Johnson flew to his parent’s home in Weed, New Mexico two years ago, he arrived just in time to get evacuated from an approaching forest fire.

Two days earlier, Erick’s mother had a premonition of impending fire and began loading her cars. When the fire department arrived and told her to start packing she was almost done. Thirty minutes later, the firefighters returned and told them to leave immediately.

Before leaving though, Erick and his mom put their hands on the house and prayed: “Lord, if You want to take it, it’s yours to take. We love You and know You’ll take care of us and we’ll trust You for our needs.”

Erick and his folks spent a sleepless night with a family 10 miles away. Around 4:30 in the morning, some friends ventured back to see how their house was doing. They returned with bad news. Huge flames engulfed both sides of the house and the front porch.

But around 6 a.m. two firefighters arrived who had just assessed the burn area. They told the Johnsons that only four homes survived, but that theirs was one of them.

When Erick went to see this miracle for himself he was astounded. Inside the property line everything was green but outside everything was charred black. About 40 feet from the house an area was burned about 25 feet wide by 100 feet long.

Erick said, “It was as if God were saying, ‘I just wanted to let you know I was here.’” (Taken from the July 2000 issue of The Standard, a magazine of the Baptist General Conference).

It’s been said, “Prayer can do anything God can do” and that’s true. But only when we take time to ask. As James once wrote, “You do not have because you do not ask.” (James 4:2, NAS).

With “A Touch of Grace,” I’m Chaplain David Deppmeier."

So, you see, our tax money is promoting beliefs in:

1) Preminitions.
Eric's mother "had a premonition of impending fire" (probably in the context of countless radio warnings that fires were sweeping the area and mysterious "visions" of black smoke in the sky) and acted on that premonition.

2) Magical incantations.
The central message of the story is "ask and you shall receive". Bow down to Sky Daddy and He'll shower you with candy.

3) Divine Justice.
If you don't receive, you just weren't being sincere. If you do, you are on God's side. If your house burns down, you deserve it (or it is a mystery of God's love).

I bet you if a James-Randi-like investigation of the incident were carried out, half of the story would prove to be bullshit.

Strel

[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Strelnieks ]</p>

diana

(Psst, Zero Angel...I think it's General Schedule, referring to their pay chart[/i].)

I've also spent a bit of time in Europe and find the radio programming quite unrepresentative of the population. I even recall some particular drivel in which some black dude from Louisiana (I think) has a talk show in which he raps with this peeps and constantly puts down white people--absolute trash that could constitute an MEO complaint against AFR.

All this probably wouldn't piss me off so much if they admitted that the people in charge picked shows they like and to hell with the rest of us, but they don't.

I listened to a lot of radio in French when I was there.

d

Oresta

fromtheright:
As to neutrality, the chaplaincy represents several different religions; thus it is difficult to see how an establishment of religion is threatened.

Several different religions? Here's a quote from the "Prayer Requests" section of Strelnieks' weblink <a href="http://www.afneurope.army.mil/Chaplain/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.afneurope.army.mil/Chaplain/index.htm</a>


And remember God's promise in James 5:16
"The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results. (NLT)"

Ah, the power of prayer - provided it's a Christian prayer.

scombrid

Another Touch of Grace:


The rest of the story:

Sadly it was only an isolated summer shower that failed to put a dent in the drought. The crops continued to wither, severl of the town's elderly died from heat related illness, and the crop failure broke several farms that are now being auctioned off by the bank. The kid with the umbrella, he was struck by lightening as he walked home proudly holding his umbrella high to show his great faith to all. You know the song "this little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine". Well that lightening certainly lit his ass up that great afternoon.

See the rain was just a teaser. God wanted everybody to beleive but he couldn't be bothered to do any real good. Those that perished or lost their livelihoods, well we can just assume that they were the unholiest of them all.

ohwilleke

I think the military is the example that fundamentalists would like to see throughout society. They want broadcast networks to look like AFN, they want chaplins of several denominations on the public payroll and churning out government sponsored PSAs endorsing Christianity. They want minority religious beliefs to be tolerated, but just barely. The want bosses to lead prayers for employees.

It isn't just that the military may be more religious and conservative than the general public (probably true, but much more so with officers than enlisted ranks), it is that the military has a fairly pervasive enforced religiousity which simply isn't present in the society that it is pledged to protect. The military is busy building disrespect for the fundamental principals of its own nation.

While national defense may require increased discipline from a society of people who carry automatic weapons and worse around with them on a daily basis, it isn't at all obvious that the political disconnect between the general public and the military is necessary or desirable for national defense. Indeed, ultimately it could pose the threat of a volunteer military so alienated from mainstream democratic thought, that it leads to a coup in the United States . . . the United States military may indeed be the #1 military threat to American democracy. Mexico, Russia and Canada aren't going to invade. A rougue missle may kill people but it wouldn't destroy our system of government. The U.S. military on the other hand, could do just that.

Again, I don't think that the military is the way it is because it has to be that way. It has just as much to do with the institutional history of the military. It is a self-perpetuating club that has created an environment unfriendly for a large chunk of the population. Perhaps most notably, the military has alienated the vast majority of the top 25% of high school age students. Military recruiters get the vast majority of their recruits from the middle 50%. The top 25% go to college and don't trust the military. The military doesn't want the bottom 25%.

This brain drain, which has a great deal to do with military culture, endangers national security to a great degree. Many people most able to be really quality officers and NCOs scorn the military because of its retrograde culture.

fromtheright

ohwilleke,

I think you've been watching too many movies. A coup in the United States?

I don't know if you have any military experience and, if so, if it was any different than mine, but I've never encountered any "fairly pervasive enforced religiosity." While in the Navy, my own views were rather negative toward religion and I even got into a couple of rather heated, but civil exchange with the Executive Officer on my ship, with absolutely no repercussions. There was by no means any expected attendance at religious services and I doubt seriously if that is the case in the other services, though I have heard that chapel is mandatory during Marine boot camp, but I'm not even sure about that.

You might want to take a look at the military oath that we support and defend the Constitution. Is there a more fundamental principle you would have them defend?

"[N]ational defense may require increased discipline"? That you would question that premise tells me that you probably have no idea of the military's mission and the requirements to execute that mission. Your premise argument that there is a growing civil-military gap is one heard more often lately, but I wonder if you want a military that mirrors the couch-potato society around it?

"[T]he United States military may indeed be the #1 military threat to American democracy." I think you also greatly underestimate the great respect those in uniform have, while not for the growing softness of society, but for our institutions. And, again, before you bemoan the military's contempt for society, I think that is far less dangerous than their wishing or attempting to lower the military's standards.

So what exactly would your ideal military look like? And would it be able to perform its mission if as you would design it?

How has it "alienated" the top 25% of high school age students? Does that mean that none of the top 25% enter the military? That probably has many more reasons than you see, such as (1) more educational opportunities through scholarships, (2) other career opportunities/choices that they prefer and are available to them because they are the top 25%, to name just a couple that come to mind. Let's not forget that it is a volunteer force too. So, the top 25% don't want the military and the military doesn't want the bottom 25%--I'm not sure what the problem is. It would be great, sure, if there were more in the top 25% joined the military but that's their choice.

[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: fromtheright ]</p>