Inconnu

I am having a vision in swirly clouds, I see words hovering in space - "dev...a.......","devils ad...ate",".evils adv.ca..". hmmm, just cant make it out. Maybe its all in my mind, dunno.

HelenM

Ok, fair enough. I did think it was a genuine apology.

Hang in there...

Helen

River

Diana

I do not find your approach argumentative or antagonistic. It is however augmentative and agnostic. In short, I believe you are far more open-minded than most people but there are certain things that I must point out. Just for a moment , place your b.s meter aside for I do not want to set it off.

I must say that you are 100% right on my basic assumptions. You nailed it . Though, you compared me to Christian missionaries and apologetics.....Which I would have to disagree because I am clearly speaking at another level. Christians who defend their scripture are often compelled to employ semantic acrobatics as a way of expressing themselves. Their methodology is often different, and there certainly isn't a whole lot they could say about science from their scripture.

Roughly ten years ago, I felt a similar viewpoint of the Holy Quran. When I first picked it up ...I was confused......Why are chapters named after things that it is not related to ? Why is there no beginning or end to the book? Why are things belabored upon? Why is there no geneology charts? Why are the shortest Suras in the back? Things didnt make sense at first, and I stopped reading the book for some time......


However, over the years I have taken and indepth look into the Quran. You say it has no rhythm and order. It might appear that way because translaters of the Quran have generally had it such that it would imitate the feel of "Kings James Version". This is a difficult task indeed . The Quran is by far the most meticulously chiseled book in human history. Allow me to explain....

In Michael Sells " Approaching the Qu'ran : the Early Revelations ( comes with arabic CD recitations) He explains the order as well as sound and gender dynamics of Quranic passages. I shall quote him : " Just as the Spirit passage on prophecy in the Sura of Destiny showed a powerful intertextual resonance with the Qur'an account of Maryam's conception of Jesus through the spirit so the account of Adam's creation shows an intertextual resonance with the Maryam passage. These parallels-between the breathing of the spirit into the shape of Adam and the breathing of the spirit into Mary-link the 2 processes in a way that is never explicit , but is nevertheless robust. These parallels place the full weight of Qur'anic intertextuality around the key phrase in the Sura of Destiny, " the spirit in/upon her". That intertextuality heightens the sense of implicit personification and gender interplay in the Sura. Through such intertextuality, sound figures can be heard to intimate personification of night as feminine, conceiving prophetic message through the spirit."

-obviously this makes little or no sense at this point. I can not show charts and mapping of sounds here. If you are truly an open minded individual I ask of you to pick up Michael Sells book. It is a brilliant book with much more insight than I can possibly post here. Hey, you say you dont speak arabic. Its all right neither do I . But there's alot you can pick up over some time.


Take a look at the following verse:

(3-59) Surely the likeness of Jesus is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He (Allah) created him (Jesus) from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.

The Quran recognizes Parallels between Prophet Adam and Prophet Jesus. The word Jesus is derived from the aramaic word Yehesa which means " Son of Man/ Adam" and regarded as the "2nd Adam" in Christiantity.

Fact1:Occurrences of the word "Jesus" in the whole Quran = 25 times = Occurrences of the word "Adam" = 25 times.

We see then that the likeness of Adam and Jesus p.u.t. is also mathematically appearing in the reiteration of their names.

This likeness occurs in the verse 59 of chapter 3: and it is the only verse where the two names comes together.






CONCEPT OF TIMELESSNESS

In order to portray timelessness , " In the Quran, a rapid shift back and forth between perfect (completed time) and imperfect (ongoing time) tenses destabilises the normal mutually exclusive division between completed time and ongoing time. In addition through its sound figures the Quran melds the three discreet moments of revelation, creation and day of reckoning "[ Michael sells]
[18:17] You could see the sun when it rose coming from the right side of their cave, and when it set, it shone on them from the left, as they slept in the hollow thereof. This is one of GOD's portents. Whomever GOD guides is the truly guided one, and whomever He sends astray, you will not find for him a guiding teacher.

[18:18] You would think that they were awake, when they were in fact asleep. We turned them to the right side and the left side, while their dog stretched his arms in their midst. Had you looked at them, you would have fled from them, stricken with terror.

[18:19] When we resurrected them, they asked each other, "How long have you been here?" "We have been here one day or part of the day," they answered. "Your Lord knows best how long we stayed here, so let us send one of us with this money to the city. Let him fetch the cleanest food, and buy some for us. Let him keep a low profile, and attract no attention.

[18:20] "If they discover you, they will stone you, or force you to revert to their religion, then you can never succeed."

haverbob

Perhaps not really.

Can you just give me the exact agreed upon and most widely accepted version of 18:85-6 ? That's what I'm looking for. You put the same verse number on 2 entirely different sentences. I wanted the exact words and then your explanation. I was not asking you to change the words. If I looked in the standard, most widely accepted version of the Quran, which version of those 2 quotes would I find? That's what I wanted to know. However, please allow me to thank you for your efforts. That much I do appreciate.

River

There is no standard version of the Quran, other than the Arabic. We do not have a church or centralized hierarchy. It is understood that most English translations are relatively shoddy. Some , however prefer Yusuf Ali, or Shakur. AJ Arberry is the best nonmuslim translator of the Quran. He tries his best in trying to translate the English Koran in keeping with some of the rhythm of the Arabic Quran. Honestly, I've never looked at that verse with that much suspicion. I just went on and read Zul-Qurnain's account. He is a very interesting Prophet.

River

Diana


The Koran doesnt have any scientific contradictions , atleast the arabic Quran. The Quran has a regional flood ( of Noah's) ....it says that Pharoah's body will be restored as opposed to the Biblical version where it said it has drowned in Sea. Even archaelogists have found the lost city of Uber , using the Quranic narrative.

"Those who seek among modern data for proof of the veracity of the Holy Scripture will find a magnificent illustration of the verses of the Quran dealing with the Pharoah's body by visiting the Royal Mummies Room of the Egyptian Museum , Cairo" [Maurice Bucaille]


I still dont know why we argue about little things...like say if the world was egg-shaped ( although the primary meaning is " vast expanse"). Picture Saudi Arabia 1400 years ago, where will you find a round object. There were no basketballs, or wheels just camels. And you can't say that "the earth is head shaped" because some people have triangular shaped heads...and not only that it does not sound elegant. Nor can you say the Earth is Sun-shaped , which sounds rather odd. Egg-shaped is a good approximation (especially as a secondary meaning). Just admit it.


NOAH's REGIONAL FLOOD {ONLY FOUND IN QURANIC VERSION}



-this article is by a well known scientist named Maurice Bucaille


The Narration of the Flood Contained in the Qur'an.

The Qur'an gives a general version which is different from that contained in the Bible and does not give rise to any criticisms from a historical point of view.

It does not provide a continuous narration of the Flood. Numerous suras talk of the punishment inflicted upon Noah's people. The most complete account of this is in sura 11, verses 25 to 49. Sura 71, which bears Noah's name, describes above all Noah's preachings, as do verses 105 to 115, sura 26. Before going into the actual course taken by events, we must consider the Flood as described in the Qur' an by relating it to the general context of the punishment God inflicted on communities guilty of gravely infringing His Commandments.

Whereas the Bible describes a universal Flood intended to punish ungodly humanity as a whole, the Qur'an, in contrast, mentions several punishments inflicted on certain specifically defined communities.

This may be seen in verses 35 to 39, sura 25:
"We gave Moses the Scripture and appointed his brother Aaron with him as vizier. We said: Go to the people who have denied Our signs. We destroyed them completely. When the people of Noah denied the Messengers, We drowned them and We made of them a sign for mankind. (We destroyed the tribes) of Âd and Tamud, the companions of Rass and many generations between them. We warned each of them by examples and We annihilated them completely."

haverbob

Sigh...

Okay. Which one of those two versions you gave is Ali and which one is Shakir? I am not trying to tease you, I am genuinely puzzled and as I said, this keeps me from accepting Islam.

Does the English interpretation of the fetus starting as a blood clot vary this widely? Does one say that it is a stone and the other say that it is a blood clot?

Why not? Do you mean to tell me that someone is being unreasonable if they do a double take when someone speaks about the sun setting in a body of water? This is a honest inquiry.

River

I dont want to make the English language sound bad...but I will be honest...it is not a very complex language. Even Spanish , I would say is superior in quality. However, you must understand the subtleties in Semetic languages [ Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic]... They are powerful languages with alot of overtones and many roots. Say, for example....okay Arabic has quite a few words for day. Now , the word that was used for "day" in the Quran (in i.e the earth/universe created in 6 days) also means "periods". Now if the Quran used a more limited definition of the word , "day " there, then it would be wrong....but it doesnt. And you must understand this is the case with the text , throughout.

Okay, as far as Embryology is concerned , the Quran is exact, concise but painstakingly exact. In fact, since I go to medical school....I will tell you ....my medical school anatomy textbook as well as embryo text book is authored by Keith Moore. Keith Moore ,
PhD, FIAC, FRSM is the Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Cell Biology Faculty of Medicine, University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada



This is what he said about Quranic embryology.

http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-a.htm

Now, there are alot of websites that "claim to have found contradictions" in Embryology verses in Quran. but in actuality should I believe someone who read the book ( or articles) or the person who WRote the book ( Keith moore)...I dont' just trust these laymen that go around looking for holes to everything.

Now what you are asking is not totally unreasonable. But I can not answer this due to " 3 variable " problem that I mentioned before. I dont know who Zul-Qurnain is . ...I dont know what he is doing.. I dont even know where he is going...and I still do not know with any certainty who these Yajuj and Majuj is. Maybe If I had a time machine, I could tell you what he saw.

haverbob

Well okay, but since Keith Moore, who's opinion you cherish so much, appears to be an engilsh speaking scientist living in Canada, I would have to assume that he read an english version of the Quran. Correct? According to you, somehow he was able to gain the proper meaning from the english translation and yet no one seems to be able to have a proper translation or meaning of the verse that I am pointing out. Hmmmm. Are you capable of seeing what is going on here? Believe it or not, I am not assuming you are.


Well okay. So now the Quran falls into Bible land. Muslims always write about the "total clarity and understandability of the Quran in contrast with the Bible. No faith or interpretation needed. All of the words make perfect sense even to this day. That is the beauty of it". Does this sound familiar to you? I honestly wish Muslims would at least stop making these claims in the brochure because obviously we have both just identified something that is TOTALLY unclear. Haven't we?

River

dude, I didnt make these claims. I believe the Quran is the most practical religious expression and a Clear Guidance , for those that seek the straight path and the Eternal Way. For proper conduct, humility of expression and nobility of thought

However, Although for some it might be a fun excersise to know everything about everything. In truth deciphering who Zul-Qurnain is a rather Erudite, Pedantic Endeavor.

I believe Keith Moore knows English as well as Arabic , but I could be wrong.