Jobar

Tercel, in the 'An engineer's apologetics' thread, said-

If we are to be free then the universe has to run itself. You need physical laws. Otherwise, God would have to personally move every atom himself. Now, I don’t doubt he can do that. But if he does, we are no longer free to make things happen for ourselves. All we are doing is thinking something and watching God do it for us. Worse, if we chose to act in an evil way God would have to carry that act out. He would have to sin. To the Christian this is impossible.

It occurs to me from this, that any postulated omnipotent and omniscient creator *is* (or more precisely, would be) moving every atom. I have seen arguments- from Albert Cipriani, IIRC- that the forces of physics are, in fact, the power of the mind of God, which form and move and shape every single particle in the universe. I would think that any sort of presuppositionalism would require this sort of 'foundation of all reality' god.

Of course, the difficulties Tercel points out are well known, and are the heart of the question of free will vs. determinism.

I want to discuss just how it might be that a creator deity (not necessarily the Xtian one, so the believers here need not worry about omnibenevolence, and hence *require* free will to deal with evil and suffering) could allow or create forces beyond his own control. I think there are difficulties with this concept beyond the ones the Xtians have!

Magus55

I don't quite get your point with this.

Why does God have to move every atom? He created the universe, put the laws of physics, energy, matter etc. etc. in motion and keeps it running. He is outside the universe but can be within the universe for whatever reason He chooses.

theIPU

He can be outside the universe? Isn't the universe everything there is?? How could something be outside everything?? I'm confused

Bumble Bee Tuna

If God created the laws of physics, then everything we think is a result of those laws of physics and thus is a result of God's will. Ergo, we have no free will. If God didn't create the laws of physics that dictate every event in the world, including what we think, then...what DID God do? Isn't he supposed to be above everything? But this would clearly be an instance of God being forced to obey some higher power (the laws of Physics).

-B

Magus55

God exists beyond time and space. He created time and can see the past, present, and future at once. He encompasses all of the universe - he isn't bound by a material plane. The universe isn't "everything" in the spiritual world. God exists both outside and inside of it.

Answerer

Since God exists beyond and independently of spacetime, how can spacetime be affected or created by Him? Its like trying to use fire to produce ice. It doesn't make sense at all.

Tercel

Giving credit where credit's due, what Jobar quotes me as saying, I was myself quoting from a page on Bede's website -"A dialogue concerning natural religion".

I cannot say I see the point of Jobar's query. Nobody is arguing that God has created forces beyond his control. The argument is that God has created forces, which by voluntary self-limitation he chooses not control.

Skeptic Mystic

It might help to think of God as a cartoonist. A comic strip takes place in a number of panels that are arranged in what would seem to be chronologically to the characters within the strip. The Cartoonist, however, can read all the panels comparatively simultaneously and could, in fact, draw the last panel first. Furthermore, the Cartoonist, as a three dimensional being, exists at a different level of reality than his 2 dimensional creation. While it would be accurate to say that the comic is a part of the Cartoonist's reality, the Cartoonist exists outside of the strip, while still being able to affect it.

Theli

There is nothing to support this claim. If you have no evidence, your claim remains a hypothetical one, and should not be considered true.

Don't you agree?

joedad

"Voluntary self limitation." Hmmmm. On another forum I asked another Tercel to tell me where the supernatural Big Bang ended and the natural Big Bang then commenced so that we could talk about natural forces and Big Bang cosmology without having to deal with whether or not a being caused this or that to happen; just do away with any supernatural influences at some point. Exactly where did the being or superfairy that caused the Universe let go?

The response I received was to differentiate between a being's "Divine Will" and this same being's "Everpresent Will." "Voluntary self-limitation" is the same silliness.

The fact is that Tercel can't escape his Deistic/Theistic dilemma, and therefore everything is supernatural. Period. I challenge him to come clean. At what point(s) does his being 'voluntarily self limit.'

joe