Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Gemma Therese · 12-31-2002, 06:57 AM

I would like to hear atheists' response to this:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Galileo_Controversy.asp

Gemma Therese

The Admiral · 12-31-2002, 07:04 AM

Okay Gemma, I'm printing it right now.

The Admiral

Godless Dave · 12-31-2002, 08:09 AM

I expected it to be full of lies, but it's even worse. It starts off by denying that Galileo was persecuted, but then goes on to detail how it was just fine for the church to punish him for advocating a scientific theory and for making fun of the pope.

Gemma, do you think it's morally correct for an institution to punish someone for advocating a scientific theory? Do you think it's morally correct for an institution to punish someone for making fun of the pope?

What killed me was this:

Quote:

Galileo was, in fact, treated surprisingly well.
...Galileo was offered every convenience possible to make his imprisonment in his home bearable.

Sure his punishment wasn't that harsh - but since he did absolutely nothing wrong that's not good enough. He shouldn't have been punished at all.

tdekeyser · 12-31-2002, 08:33 AM

Galileo WAS persecuted for his science (which turned out true).

Evolution is going through the same problem with Xians, gosh when will they let Science tell the TRUTH and not BLIND FAITH?

Gemma Therese · 12-31-2002, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tdekeyser
Galileo WAS persecuted for his science (which turned out true).

Evolution is going through the same problem with Xians, gosh when will they let Science tell the TRUTH and not BLIND FAITH?

The Roman Catholic Church does not deny evolution.

Gemma Therese

Bree · 12-31-2002, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese
The Roman Catholic Church does not deny evolution.

Since when?

Do you have a link to some credible literature to back yourself up?

GunnerJ · 12-31-2002, 08:56 AM

Oh yes, this. I remember wanting to start a thread on this a while ago, but I was to lazy at the time. Since I'm not feeling particularly more ambitious, I'll just take two pot-shots:

Quote:

Galileo was offered every convenience possible to make his imprisonment in his home bearable.

I see. So I gues It's OK to rape a woman so long as you knock her out first so she won't remember anything.

Quote:

As more recent science has shown, both Galileo and his opponents were partly right and partly wrong. Galileo was right in asserting the mobility of the earth and wrong in asserting the immobility of the sun. His opponents were right in asserting the mobility of the sun and wrong in asserting the immobility of the earth.

What fast-talking horseshit. This type of double-speak only works so long as we reduce that geocentric model's description of the Sun to "it moves." Wrong, the geeocentric model states that it moves around the stationary Earth which is completely wrong. Galileo was only wrong for asserting the stability of the Sun because of his lack of observational data showing that it moved in relation to the galactic core, which his opponents would never have even considered given the "obvious fact" that the Sun moves around the Earth.

tdekeyser · 12-31-2002, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese
The Roman Catholic Church does not deny evolution.

Gemma Therese

How is that possible??? ANY suggustion that the universe is not as depicted in the bible, and you have problems with the Word.

Genesis is NOT the Word of God?

GunnerJ · 12-31-2002, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bree
Since when?

Do you have a link to some credible literature to back yourself up?

Sorry, Bree, but Gemma has you here.

The Pope and Evolution

ksagnostic · 12-31-2002, 09:26 AM

The link you posted is absolutely pathetic, an excuse for persecuting a man for the "crime" of disagreeing with the Church. Incidentally, the most pathetic part of your link was the summary at the end...

"No ecumenical council met concerning Galileo, and the pope was not at the center of the discussions, which were handled by the Holy Office. When the Holy Office finished its work, Urban VIII ratified its verdict, but did not attempt to engage infallibility.

Three conditions must be met for a pope to exercise the charism of infallibility: (1) he must speak in his official capacity as the successor of Peter; (2) he must speak on a matter of faith or morals; and (3) he must solemnly define the doctrine as one that must be held by all the faithful.

In Galileo�s case, the second and third conditions were not present, and possibly not even the first. Catholic theology has never claimed that a mere papal ratification of a tribunal decree is an exercise of infallibility. It is a straw man argument to represent the Catholic Church as having infallibly defined a scientific theory that turned out to be false. The strongest claim that can be made is that the Church of Galileo�s day issued a non-infallible disciplinary ruling concerning a scientist who was advocating a new and still-unproved theory and demanding that the Church change its understanding of Scripture to fit his.

It is a good thing that the Church did not rush to embrace Galileo�s views, because it turned out that his ideas were not entirely correct, either. Galileo believed that the sun was not just the fixed center of the solar system but the fixed center of the universe. We now know that the sun is not the center of the universe and that it does move�it simply orbits the center of the galaxy rather than the earth.

As more recent science has shown, both Galileo and his opponents were partly right and partly wrong. Galileo was right in asserting the mobility of the earth and wrong in asserting the immobility of the sun. His opponents were right in asserting the mobility of the sun and wrong in asserting the immobility of the earth.

Had the Catholic Church rushed to endorse Galileo�s views�and there were many in the Church who were quite favorable to them�the Church would have embraced what modern science has disproved. "

In other words, the Pope is only infallible if he invokes the three conditions and he didn't do that in the Galileo case AND the Holy Office's decision (endorsed by the Pope) was therefore "non-infallible" (why employ a negative to a negative anyway, except to avoid saying "fallible"?), BUT the what the church was really doing was trying to restrain Galileo from rushing to embrace an "unproven theory" AND it was a good thing that they did because he wasn't entirely correct.

In other words, the writer wants go give the church maximum credit for avoiding Galileo's errors while minimizing the Church's errors.

Here is a link to an English translation of the Church's Indictment against Galileo.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1630galileo.html

It is clear that the Holy Office charged and sentenced Galileo of "heresy", and that the heresy was that :

"The proposition that the sun is in the center of the world and immovable from its place is absurd, philosophically false, and formally heretical; because it is expressly contrary to Holy Scriptures. "

Of course, that is not correct, but not because in contradicts "Holy Scriptures".

And...

"The proposition that the earth is not the center of the world, nor immovable, but that it moves, and also with a diurnal action, is also absurd, philosophically false, and, theologically considered, at least erroneous in faith. "

The Catholic Church made an error which it has acknowledged. The pathetic "Galileo was a meany who insulted the church and the pope so it wasn't entirely the church's fault" people should just let it go.

12-31-2002, 06:57 AM	#1
Gemma Therese Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: new york Posts: 608	The Galileo Controversy I would like to hear atheists' response to this: http://www.catholic.com/library/Galileo_Controversy.asp Gemma Therese

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12-31-2002, 07:04 AM	#2
The Admiral Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Racine, Wi. USA Posts: 768	Okay Gemma, I'm printing it right now. The Admiral

12-31-2002, 08:33 AM	#4
tdekeyser Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 341	Galileo WAS persecuted for his science (which turned out true). Evolution is going through the same problem with Xians, gosh when will they let Science tell the TRUTH and not BLIND FAITH?

12-31-2002, 09:26 AM	#10
ksagnostic Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Wichita, KS, USA Posts: 2,514	The link you posted is absolutely pathetic, an excuse for persecuting a man for the "crime" of disagreeing with the Church. Incidentally, the most pathetic part of your link was the summary at the end... "No ecumenical council met concerning Galileo, and the pope was not at the center of the discussions, which were handled by the Holy Office. When the Holy Office finished its work, Urban VIII ratified its verdict, but did not attempt to engage infallibility. Three conditions must be met for a pope to exercise the charism of infallibility: (1) he must speak in his official capacity as the successor of Peter; (2) he must speak on a matter of faith or morals; and (3) he must solemnly define the doctrine as one that must be held by all the faithful. In Galileo�s case, the second and third conditions were not present, and possibly not even the first. Catholic theology has never claimed that a mere papal ratification of a tribunal decree is an exercise of infallibility. It is a straw man argument to represent the Catholic Church as having infallibly defined a scientific theory that turned out to be false. The strongest claim that can be made is that the Church of Galileo�s day issued a non-infallible disciplinary ruling concerning a scientist who was advocating a new and still-unproved theory and demanding that the Church change its understanding of Scripture to fit his. It is a good thing that the Church did not rush to embrace Galileo�s views, because it turned out that his ideas were not entirely correct, either. Galileo believed that the sun was not just the fixed center of the solar system but the fixed center of the universe. We now know that the sun is not the center of the universe and that it does move�it simply orbits the center of the galaxy rather than the earth. As more recent science has shown, both Galileo and his opponents were partly right and partly wrong. Galileo was right in asserting the mobility of the earth and wrong in asserting the immobility of the sun. His opponents were right in asserting the mobility of the sun and wrong in asserting the immobility of the earth. Had the Catholic Church rushed to endorse Galileo�s views�and there were many in the Church who were quite favorable to them�the Church would have embraced what modern science has disproved. " In other words, the Pope is only infallible if he invokes the three conditions and he didn't do that in the Galileo case AND the Holy Office's decision (endorsed by the Pope) was therefore "non-infallible" (why employ a negative to a negative anyway, except to avoid saying "fallible"?), BUT the what the church was really doing was trying to restrain Galileo from rushing to embrace an "unproven theory" AND it was a good thing that they did because he wasn't entirely correct. In other words, the writer wants go give the church maximum credit for avoiding Galileo's errors while minimizing the Church's errors. Here is a link to an English translation of the Church's Indictment against Galileo. http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1630galileo.html It is clear that the Holy Office charged and sentenced Galileo of "heresy", and that the heresy was that : "The proposition that the sun is in the center of the world and immovable from its place is absurd, philosophically false, and formally heretical; because it is expressly contrary to Holy Scriptures. " Of course, that is not correct, but not because in contradicts "Holy Scriptures". And... "The proposition that the earth is not the center of the world, nor immovable, but that it moves, and also with a diurnal action, is also absurd, philosophically false, and, theologically considered, at least erroneous in faith. " The Catholic Church made an error which it has acknowledged. The pathetic "Galileo was a meany who insulted the church and the pope so it wasn't entirely the church's fault" people should just let it go.

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