Freethought & Rationalism Archive

02-07-2002, 07:53 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sullster:
[QB]
Sullster you should not blame God for the worlds problems but our interpretation of sacret scripture. It sounds like you want some more powerful retalliating force to bomb N.America to smithereens because we are the ones killing them for their deception, etc.

As for the flood, that was a parable, and the annihilation of humankind (the condition of being human) is needed to get to the promised land. What went wrong is that they parted the water and took the easy way to get there and hence they wandered there for 40 years and died nonetheless.

To "part the waters" is equal to the sin against the HS and hence they died.

Amos

sullster · 02-08-2002, 02:42 PM

There is no god. There is nothing to blame, there is nothing out there. The sacret(sic) texts are fantasy and all that is in them is illusion.

If there is any powerful force I want, it is reason and rational/critical thinking to run in human brains. I want the religious delusions to fade away to obscurity, where they richly belong.

HRG · 02-08-2002, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by theophilus:
[QB]

First, I think there are many here who would dispute your claim to be the Youngest Atheist, since they assert that everyone is born an atheist and has to be "indoctrinated" into theism.

Second, your argument fails because of the fallacy of equivocation. Muder means "unjust taking of life." We recognize that not all killing is murder; self-defense, defensive war, judicial executions, etc.
Since God, as the creator, is the judge of his creation, his killing of people is an exercise of judicial execution.

Absolute non-sequitur. A judge, like any other governmental official, has to be legitimized by the consent of those governed - just as the laws he is judging under have to be legitimized.

Without that legitimation, a killer is just a killer.

HRG.

smugg · 02-11-2002, 11:11 PM

In a serious atempt to answer the question:

Any fictional character would have a hard time coming close to the body cound 'ol Mao racked up in his 'Great Leap Foreward.'

But Mao Zedong didn't really mean to starve 30 million people (besides the 10 million he did intend to off). If it's intentional killing you're talking about, Adolph Hitler was history's most deadly murderer with some 34 million deaths. Stalin's right behind him.

Jack the Bodiless · 02-12-2002, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Second, your argument fails because of the fallacy of equivocation. Muder means "unjust taking of life." We recognize that not all killing is murder; self-defense, defensive war, judicial executions, etc.
Since God, as the creator, is the judge of his creation, his killing of people is an exercise of judicial execution.
God had given clear warning to Adam & Eve, "when you eat the (forbidden) fruit, you will die." They ate, and they came under a death sentence, as were all their posterity, because all sin.

No, Theo, this cannot be described as "just". You're overlooking the fact that "justice" involves linking a crime to a punishment: the punishment is inflicted upon the perpetrator of the crime, as a direct consequence of the crime.

If a law is introduced which makes eating cinnamon bagels a crime punishable by death, it could be argued that the subsequent execution of a bagel-eater was "just" according to the customs of that society. However, the killing of somebody else for this crime would still be unjust.

The killing of innocents for the crimes of others is a common theme throughout Christianity (it is, in a sense, the core doctrine of the religion). The J/C God is unjust, according to the very definition of "justice".

moon · 02-12-2002, 11:49 PM

As far as people who have literally murdered people themselves, the guys that flew the Enola Gay probably have the all-time record.

moon · 02-12-2002, 11:52 PM

bllah,

Please let me apologize for the rednecks on this board. Fortunately, they don't represent all Americans.

Quote:

Originally posted by sullster:
You know, maybe if there was a bit of a "gun culture" in your country, then maybe the Russians, then the Germans, and then the Russians again wouldn't have run over your country.

And maybe if there was more of a gun culture in Aghanistan, the U.S. wouldn't have run over the country. Oh, wait...

Pandora · 02-13-2002, 12:37 AM

“in your little back-woods country”

“You know, maybe if there was a bit of a "gun culture" in your country, then maybe the Russians, then the Germans, and then the Russians again wouldn't have run over your country. “

And the USA wonders why the rest of the world find them obnoxious on occasion.

David Gould · 02-13-2002, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by theophilus:


First, I think there are many here who would dispute your claim to be the Youngest Atheist, since they assert that everyone is born an atheist and has to be "indoctrinated" into theism.

Second, your argument fails because of the fallacy of equivocation. Muder means "unjust taking of life." We recognize that not all killing is murder; self-defense, defensive war, judicial executions, etc.
Since God, as the creator, is the judge of his creation, his killing of people is an exercise of judicial execution.
God had given clear warning to Adam & Eve, "when you eat the (forbidden) fruit, you will die." They ate, and they came under a death sentence, as were all their posterity, because all sin.
God's destruction of humankind inthe flood was actually a mercy. If you'll read the account carefully, you'll see that mankind was headed toward self-destruction. If God had not intervened to save some and purge the earth of corruption, no one would have survived.
Those who were killed in the flood were receiving the just sentence for their sin. Their "suffering" was the natural consequence of their actions.
BTW, which way were you looking?

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: theophilus ]

If God can do whatever he likes with us because he is our judge, is he permitted to lie to us - say for example about the possibility of salvation?

Paradisedreams2 · 02-16-2002, 10:55 AM

God no doubt

but it depend "how" you view it.

The flood of "waters" not "water" (defintion: the "waters" that thou saweth are peoples multitudes tribes and nations) These waters "lifted up" the Ark. The Ark represents (obviously) Christ a patern or similitude of Christ. (in a nutshell) but the levites bearing up the "Ark of the covenant" is the second picture which needs to be considered to draw this conclusion. Therefore the waters are now SEEN AS PEOPLE lifting up the Ark.

God gave Pharoah two dreams (so there are at least two or three witness written in the old) that establish the testimony (somewhere, just haven't found them all yet)

Christ is also seen as the "harlot" reaching "outside" Gods covenant with Isreal (to whom he was sent to as the Truth of Gods promise to them). Therefore HE commited fornication with the nations. In Isaiah Fornication for hire is seen as "Holiness unto the Lord". Thats pretty kool

As in the similitude of the tearing down barns and building bigger barns (He himself) is the "one" who's soul is required of Him.

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Paradisedreams2 ]

02-16-2002, 10:55 AM	#20
Paradisedreams2 Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pa Posts: 113	God no doubt but it depend "how" you view it. The flood of "waters" not "water" (defintion: the "waters" that thou saweth are peoples multitudes tribes and nations) These waters "lifted up" the Ark. The Ark represents (obviously) Christ a patern or similitude of Christ. (in a nutshell) but the levites bearing up the "Ark of the covenant" is the second picture which needs to be considered to draw this conclusion. Therefore the waters are now SEEN AS PEOPLE lifting up the Ark. God gave Pharoah two dreams (so there are at least two or three witness written in the old) that establish the testimony (somewhere, just haven't found them all yet) Christ is also seen as the "harlot" reaching "outside" Gods covenant with Isreal (to whom he was sent to as the Truth of Gods promise to them). Therefore HE commited fornication with the nations. In Isaiah Fornication for hire is seen as "Holiness unto the Lord". Thats pretty kool As in the similitude of the tearing down barns and building bigger barns (He himself) is the "one" who's soul is required of Him. [ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Paradisedreams2 ]</p>

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02-07-2002, 07:53 PM	#11
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	[QUOTE]Originally posted by sullster: [QB] Sullster you should not blame God for the worlds problems but our interpretation of sacret scripture. It sounds like you want some more powerful retalliating force to bomb N.America to smithereens because we are the ones killing them for their deception, etc. As for the flood, that was a parable, and the annihilation of humankind (the condition of being human) is needed to get to the promised land. What went wrong is that they parted the water and took the easy way to get there and hence they wandered there for 40 years and died nonetheless. To "part the waters" is equal to the sin against the HS and hence they died. Amos

02-08-2002, 02:42 PM	#12
sullster Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: North of Boston Posts: 1,392	There is no god. There is nothing to blame, there is nothing out there. The sacret(sic) texts are fantasy and all that is in them is illusion. If there is any powerful force I want, it is reason and rational/critical thinking to run in human brains. I want the religious delusions to fade away to obscurity, where they richly belong.

02-11-2002, 11:11 PM	#14
smugg Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Texas, USA Posts: 270	In a serious atempt to answer the question: Any fictional character would have a hard time coming close to the body cound 'ol Mao racked up in his 'Great Leap Foreward.' But Mao Zedong didn't really mean to starve 30 million people (besides the 10 million he did intend to off). If it's intentional killing you're talking about, Adolph Hitler was history's most deadly murderer with some 34 million deaths. Stalin's right behind him.

02-12-2002, 11:49 PM	#16
moon Banned Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: former British colony Posts: 2,013	As far as people who have literally murdered people themselves, the guys that flew the Enola Gay probably have the all-time record.

02-13-2002, 12:37 AM	#18
Pandora Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: UK Posts: 367	“in your little back-woods country” “You know, maybe if there was a bit of a "gun culture" in your country, then maybe the Russians, then the Germans, and then the Russians again wouldn't have run over your country. “ And the USA wonders why the rest of the world find them obnoxious on occasion.

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