Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Grumpy · 06-26-2002, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TPaine:
I'm not religious and I have no problem with hearing people profess their belief. What was it Thomas Jefferson said "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say that there are 20 gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg"

You're being the Great Dissenter here, TP.

There is a very simple reason why those two words don't belong in the Pledge: they are an establishment of religion. And the 1st Amendment of the U.S. Constitution plainly forbids Congress from doing that.

Which is what makes it so laughable that today's Congress would reflexively act to prop up the Pledge. Uh, guys, the 9th Circuit was using its judicial review to let us know that Congress was wrong in 1954. Doing it again won't make it right.

Autonemesis · 06-26-2002, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Unaffiliated:
The ACLJ has a story up on their website <a href="http://www.aclj.org/news/pressreleases/020626_pledge.asp" target="_blank">here</a>

"This is one of the most absurd legal rulings of our time," said Jay Sekulow, Chief Counsel of the ACLJ.

I guess that install-Bush-as-President ruling just doesn't rate.

britinusa · 06-26-2002, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TPaine:
"Why shouldn't my son be able to pledge his allegiance to his country and those principles of unity, indivisibility, liberty and justice without feeling the need to remain silent during the "under God" part?"

Why can't non-religious people understand that some people are religious? I'm not religious and I have no problem with hearing people profess their belief. What was it Thomas Jefferson said "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say that there are 20 gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg"

Yes, some people are religious, and no one is stopping them from going to church, praying in their own homes etc. How many churches are there in this country? 100,000? I don't know, but I DO know this country is snowed under with churches.
Everyone is entitled to practice their religion if they want to, just keep it out of public schools. Is that too much to ask?

ELECTROGOD · 06-26-2002, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Why can't non-religious people understand that some people are religious? I'm not religious and I have no problem with hearing people profess their belief. What was it Thomas Jefferson said "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say that there are 20 gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg"

Sure, do it at home, I don't want to hear you saying it for my benefit in hopes that I will convert to your superior lifestyle. If you were really non-religious you would have an extremely clear understanding that other people are religious! Do you think that it is part of a teachers job to make sure that kids profess their belief in god to those "other" kids who don't?

The Dionysian · 06-26-2002, 01:38 PM

"This is not strictly about how children feel."

Oh I know but I was just saying I would like to hear how atheist or non-religious students feel about other people saying the pledge including "under god".

The Dionysian · 06-26-2002, 01:41 PM

You know come to think of it I've always found the concept of pledging to a flag every morning pretty stupid anyways.

muon · 06-26-2002, 01:44 PM

When I was an atheistic student, the phrase "under God" in the pledge bugged the hell out of me.

Too bad this ruling didn't come decades earlier!

The Dionysian · 06-26-2002, 01:49 PM

"Do you think that it is part of a teachers job to make sure that kids profess their belief in god to those "other" kids who don't?"

No,I don't.

Toto · 06-26-2002, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TPaine:
"Do you think that it is part of a teachers job to make sure that kids profess their belief in god to those "other" kids who don't?"

No,I don't.

Well then you agree with us. This case is not about kids reciting the pledge, it is about a teacher (a paid government employee) leading the pledge.

Gooch's dad · 06-26-2002, 01:55 PM

TPaine:

The reason that the court doesn't think it is OK to just 'let the nonbelievers skip the pledge since they aren't forced anyway' is the recent series of SC rulings regarding prayer at graduations and the like.

I think the main case was regarding a football game in Texas (where a Mormon and a Catholic family sued, IIRC). The SC decided that making a school-sponsored prayer created an atmosphere of oficcial exclusion for the non-believers.

It makes it appear that the government believes the Christians to be preferred citizens over the non-believers.

This applies in the case of a pledge that explicitly endorses belief in God, too--regardless of whether that pledge is mandatory or not.

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06-26-2002, 01:38 PM	#165
The Dionysian Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: who knows Posts: 154	"This is not strictly about how children feel." Oh I know but I was just saying I would like to hear how atheist or non-religious students feel about other people saying the pledge including "under god".

06-26-2002, 01:41 PM	#166
The Dionysian Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: who knows Posts: 154	You know come to think of it I've always found the concept of pledging to a flag every morning pretty stupid anyways.

06-26-2002, 01:44 PM	#167
muon Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,767	When I was an atheistic student, the phrase "under God" in the pledge bugged the hell out of me. Too bad this ruling didn't come decades earlier!

06-26-2002, 01:49 PM	#168
The Dionysian Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: who knows Posts: 154	"Do you think that it is part of a teachers job to make sure that kids profess their belief in god to those "other" kids who don't?" No,I don't.

06-26-2002, 01:55 PM	#170
Gooch's dad Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Madison WI USA Posts: 3,508	TPaine: The reason that the court doesn't think it is OK to just 'let the nonbelievers skip the pledge since they aren't forced anyway' is the recent series of SC rulings regarding prayer at graduations and the like. I think the main case was regarding a football game in Texas (where a Mormon and a Catholic family sued, IIRC). The SC decided that making a school-sponsored prayer created an atmosphere of oficcial exclusion for the non-believers. It makes it appear that the government believes the Christians to be preferred citizens over the non-believers. This applies in the case of a pledge that explicitly endorses belief in God, too--regardless of whether that pledge is mandatory or not.

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