Freethought & Rationalism Archive

punkersluta · 03-11-2002, 02:32 PM

A Plea For Vegetarianism

In today's society, the rights of an animal go only as far as it benefits the consumers in today's economy. There have been those who stated that animals were only created for the purpose of being used in some way by humans. It is this belief that I shall challenge...

Any animal -- whether it is human or non-human, tall or short, mammalian or non-mammalian, male or female, white or black -- is capable of consciousness. By this, I mean there is no canyon seperating humans and non-humans when it comes to suffering. A cow is just as capable of suffering and emotions just as much as a human, just as much as a rat or a pig. What I am trying to say is that there is an inherent trait found within all animals, that we all have a sort of kinship, that we are all fully capable of experiencing the same world, of understanding the same suffering, of knowing what experience is. The Abolitionists who fought against slavery knew this all too well. "Despite the color of skin of any human," they argued, "We are all capable of feeling the same pains, and therefore we are all deserving of rights."

The same can be said of the other movements which worked for a sort of equality. The Women's Suffragists, for example, understood that both females and males are conscious beings, equal in feeling suffering and in feeling joy, and therefore both deserving of rights. If these Civil Liberties movements were right in their ideology -- which I firmly believe that they are -- then to what end can the brutality of eating meat be defended? It is true that the color of a man's skin cannot deny him any rights. It is true that a woman's gender cannot deny her any rights. I hold even further that the quantity of legs a being has cannot deny them any rights! Despite what species, race, gender, or sexuality an animal is from, such characteristics are irrelevant. There is one primary trait held by all animals: consciousness, the capability of feeling suffering. It is for this reason -- the regard and compassion I hold for the lower animals -- that I am a Vegetarian, and it is for this reason that I make a plea for Vegetarianism.

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kctan · 03-11-2002, 02:36 PM

If people start calling out for "Plants" (or vegetables in this case) right, what are you going to eat then ?

Plants have "emotions" too don't you know & when you cut them, they bleed as well...

punkersluta · 03-11-2002, 02:40 PM

kctan...

Quote:

If people start calling out for "Plants" (or vegetables in this case) right, what are you going to eat then ?
Plants have "emotions" too don't you know & when you cut them, they bleed as well...

Plants are not conscious beings. They are not capable of emotions, nor are they capable of interests. This is a well-known fact. Whether you chop a tree down, or give it plenty of water, it will not care either way, because it does not have any interests.

"Slaves have been treated by the law exactly upon the same footing as in England, for example, the inferior races of animals are still. The day may come when the rights which could never have been withholden from them but by the hand of tyranny." - Jeremy Bentham ["Principles of Morals and Legislation," by Jeremy Bentham. Quoted from Animals' Rights Considered In Relation To Social Progress, by Henry S. Salt, chapter 1, 1894.]

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tronvillain · 03-11-2002, 02:47 PM

punkersluta:

Quote:

There have been those who stated that animals were only created for the purpose of being used in some way by humans. It is this belief that I shall challenge...

Why are you challenging that belief in a place where it is not held?

tronvillain · 03-11-2002, 02:48 PM

Anyway, fuck your plea for vegitarianism. I see no reason to care more about animals than I already do.

Mageth · 03-11-2002, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Any animal -- whether it is human or non-human, tall or short, mammalian or non-mammalian, male or female, white or black -- is capable of consciousness. By this, I mean there is no canyon seperating humans and non-humans when it comes to suffering. A cow is just as capable of suffering and emotions just as much as a human, just as much as a rat or a pig. What I am trying to say is that there is an inherent trait found within all animals, that we all have a sort of kinship, that we are all fully capable of experiencing the same world, of understanding the same suffering, of knowing what experience is.

While I may or may not sympathize with vegetarianism (personally I think it's a matter of choice), this excerpt from your post is full of unfounded assumptions. Where is the evidence that all animals are capable of consciousness? What is your definition of consciousness? Is a clam capable of experiencing the same world as me? Does a squirrel understand the same suffering as I do? Does a shrimp really "know what experience is?" Does an oyster experience suffering and emotions the same as a human? Does a sheep feel or express the same emotions as I do? How do you know any of these things are true? (I'm not saying they are or are not true, I'm wondering why you're assuming they're true).

punkersluta · 03-11-2002, 02:49 PM

tronvillain...

Quote:

Why are you challenging that belief in a place where it is not held?

Good point. Nonetheless, the sentence can be reduced to the belief that animals are unworthy of rights.

"...the groans and screams of this poor persecuted race, if gathered into some great echoing hall of horrors, would melt the heart of the stoniest of our race." - De Quincey [Written concerning the brutality given to animalia. Quoted from Animals' Rights Considered In Relation To Social Progress, by Henry S. Salt, chapter 2, 1894.]

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Mad Kally · 03-11-2002, 02:51 PM

Punkerslut.
Why don't you just copy and paste from your last Vegetarian thread? Oh, maybe you are..

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=14&t=000541" target="_blank"> "Should We Eat Meat?" </a>

punkersluta · 03-11-2002, 02:52 PM

Mageth...

Quote:

While I may or may not sympathize with vegetarianism (personally I think it's a matter of choice), this excerpt from your post is full of unfounded assumptions. Where is the evidence that all animals are capable of consciousness? What is your definition of consciousness? Is a clam capable of experiencing the same world as me? Does a squirrel understand the same suffering as I do? Does a shrimp really "know what experience is?" Does an oyster experience suffering and emotions the same as a human? Does a sheep feel or express the same emotions as I do? How do you know any of these things are true? (I'm not saying they are or are not true, I'm wondering why you're assuming they're true).

While it is true that some animals are not capable of consciousness (such as jelly fish as well as spunges), it is well accepted that the majority of animalia (of all of what is believed to be animalia) are conscious...

Quote:

"Nevertheless the difference in mind between man and the higher animals, great as it is, certainly is one of degree and not of kind. We have seen that the senses and intuitions, the various emotions and faculties, such as love, memory, attention, curiosity, imitation, reason, &c., of which man boasts, may be found in an incipient, or even sometimes in a well-developed condition, in the lower animals." - Charles Darwin ["The Descent of Man," by Charles Darwin, part 1, chapter 4.]

Quote:

With Descartes, we must inquire whether the souls of animals be relations of the human soul, less perfect members in the same series of development. We must take account of what we discover in the intelligent principle of the ant, as well as what we discern in the intelligent principle of man. Where would human physiology be, if it were not illuminated by the bright irradiations of comparative physiology? Brodie, after an exhaustive consideration of the facts, affirms that the mind of animals is essentially the same as that of man. Every one familiar with the dog will admit that that creature knows right from wrong, and is conscious when he has committed a fault. Many domestic animals have reasoning powers, and employ proper means for the attainment of ends. How numerous are the anecdotes related of the intentional actions of the elephant and the ape! Nor is this apparent intelligence due to imitation, to their association with man, for wild animals that have no such relation exhibit similar properties. In different species, the capacity and character greatly vary. Thus the dog is not only more intelligent, but has social and moral qualities that the cat does not possess; the former loves his master, the latter her home.

[...]

Du Bois-Reymond makes this striking remark: "With awe and wonder must the student of Nature regard that microscopic molecule of nervous substance which is the seat of the laborious, constructive, orderly, loyal, dauntless soul of the ant. It has developed itself to its present state through a countless series of generations." What an impressive inference we may draw from the statement of Huber, who has written so well on this subject: "If you will watch a single ant at work, you can tell what he will next do!" He is considering the matter, and reasoning as you are doing. Listen to one of the many anecdotes which Huber, at once truthful and artless, relates: "On the visit of an overseer ant to the works, when the laborers had begun the roof too soon, he examined it and had it taken down, the wall raised to the proper height, and a new ceiling constructed with the fragments of the old one."

[...]

Surely these insects are not automata, they show intention. They recognize their old companions, who have been shut up from them for many months, and exhibit sentiments of joy at their return. Their antennal language is capable of manifold expression; it suits the interior of the nest, where all is dark. While solitary insects do not live to raise their young, social insects have a longer term, they exhibit moral affections and educate their offspring. Patterns of patience and industry, some of these insignificant creatures will work sixteen or eighteen hours a day. Few men are capable of sustained mental application more than four or five hours. Similarity of effects indicates similarity of causes; similarity of actions demands similarity of organs. I would ask the reader of these paragraphs, who is familiar with the habits of animals, and especially with the social relations of that wonderful insect to which reference has been made, to turn to the nineteenth chapter of my work on the "Intellectual Development of Europe," in which he will find a description of the social system of the Incas of Peru. Perhaps, then, in view of the similarity of the social institutions and personal conduct of the insect, and the social institutions and personal conduct of the civilized Indian -- the one an insignificant speck, the other a man -- he will not be disposed to disagree with me in the opinion that "from bees, and wasps, and ants, and birds, from all that low animal life on which he looks with supercilious contempt, man is destined one day to learn what in truth he really is." The views of Descartes, who regarded all insects as automata, can scarcely be accepted without modification. Insects are automata only so far as the action of their ventral cord, and that portion of their cephalic ganglia which deals with contemporaneous impressions, is concerned. - John William Draper ["History of the Conflict Between Religion and Science," by John William Draper, chapter 5.]

"Since justice is due to rational beings, how is it possible to evade the admission that we are bound also to act justly towards the races below us?" - Porhyry [Quoted in Animals' Rights Considered In Relation To Social Progress, by Henry S. Salt, chapter 1, 1894.]

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punkersluta · 03-11-2002, 02:54 PM

Mad Kally...

Quote:

Punkerslut.
Why don't you just copy and paste from your last Vegetarian thread? Oh, maybe you are..
"Should We Eat Meat?"

Intriguing. Of course, what I posted here is an entirely different short essay. But thank you for noticing. =)

"...when I say I shall die, as I have lived, rationalist, socialist, pacifist, and humanitarian, I must make my meaning clear. I wholly disbelieve in the present established religion; but I have a very firm religious faith of my own - a Creed of Kinship I call it - a belief that in years yet to come there will be a recognition of brotherhood between man and man, nation and nation, human and subhuman, which will transform a state of semi-savagery, as we have it, into one of civilisation, when there will be no such barbarity of warfare, or the robbery of the poor by the rich, or the ill-usage of the lower animals by mankind." - Henry Salt [Seventy Years Among Savages, by Henry Stephens Salt.]

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03-11-2002, 02:32 PM	#1
punkersluta Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: On the underground Posts: 45	A Plea For Vegetarianism A Plea For Vegetarianism In today's society, the rights of an animal go only as far as it benefits the consumers in today's economy. There have been those who stated that animals were only created for the purpose of being used in some way by humans. It is this belief that I shall challenge... Any animal -- whether it is human or non-human, tall or short, mammalian or non-mammalian, male or female, white or black -- is capable of consciousness. By this, I mean there is no canyon seperating humans and non-humans when it comes to suffering. A cow is just as capable of suffering and emotions just as much as a human, just as much as a rat or a pig. What I am trying to say is that there is an inherent trait found within all animals, that we all have a sort of kinship, that we are all fully capable of experiencing the same world, of understanding the same suffering, of knowing what experience is. The Abolitionists who fought against slavery knew this all too well. "Despite the color of skin of any human," they argued, "We are all capable of feeling the same pains, and therefore we are all deserving of rights." The same can be said of the other movements which worked for a sort of equality. The Women's Suffragists, for example, understood that both females and males are conscious beings, equal in feeling suffering and in feeling joy, and therefore both deserving of rights. If these Civil Liberties movements were right in their ideology -- which I firmly believe that they are -- then to what end can the brutality of eating meat be defended? It is true that the color of a man's skin cannot deny him any rights. It is true that a woman's gender cannot deny her any rights. I hold even further that the quantity of legs a being has cannot deny them any rights! Despite what species, race, gender, or sexuality an animal is from, such characteristics are irrelevant. There is one primary trait held by all animals: consciousness, the capability of feeling suffering. It is for this reason -- the regard and compassion I hold for the lower animals -- that I am a Vegetarian, and it is for this reason that I make a plea for Vegetarianism. <a href="http://www.punkerslut.com" target="_blank">www.punkerslut.com</a> For 108, Punkerslut

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03-11-2002, 02:36 PM	#2
kctan Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Heaven, just assasinated god Posts: 578	If people start calling out for "Plants" (or vegetables in this case) right, what are you going to eat then ? Plants have "emotions" too don't you know & when you cut them, they bleed as well...

03-11-2002, 02:48 PM	#5
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Anyway, fuck your plea for vegitarianism. I see no reason to care more about animals than I already do.

03-11-2002, 02:51 PM	#8
Mad Kally Banned Join Date: May 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 3,764	Punkerslut. Why don't you just copy and paste from your last Vegetarian thread? Oh, maybe you are.. <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=14&t=000541" target="_blank"> "Should We Eat Meat?" </a>

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