TerryTryon

No part of my post was meant to be free of characterization and generalization as I clearly said. I believe that the objective replies to the "proper attitude malarky," as I called it, has been done to the point of tedium in this thread. It has been repeated in every way possible, and what has been returned
by SOMMS and the other theists is little response to the logical objections, lots of prattle repeating the same nonsense, and a deaf ear.
My purpose was to show that anyone can bear testimony, but it has little bearing on the truth or compelling belief because it substitutes sincerity for evidence and trust in the witness for verification.
Be assured that the subjective/emotional aspects of my atheism, which I posted as an inverse copy of SOMMS' Tinkerbell defense of the faith, is accompanied by a great deal of serious research, pondering, and as much logic as my brain can tolerate.

ELECTROGOD

Wait a minute, we're talking about Allah, right?

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Jobar,

You may not be fully aware of the ongoing dialog between Golaith and myself. Perhaps an outline is in order.

I stated: If God exists THEN ones revelation of him is affected by ones attitude towards him.

Goliath stated: Prove it. Here Goliath seeks some revelation of me...namely my proof of the above.

I stated: Why?

Goliath stated: Because. Now pay attention.

I stated: I refuse...because of your attitude.

Goliath stated: $#@&%!


I think a few picked up on this (Biff the Unclean). This dialog IS my proof. It is proof that 'X's revelation of Y is dependant upon X's attitude towards Y'. In this case...X is Goliath...Y is me.

<SIDENOTE>The very odd thing about this whole discourse was by refusing to provide proof...proof of the concept was provided.</SIDENOTE>

Whoa. I am not saying that at all. Let me explicitly outline what I am and am not saying.

#1-God does not care about being regarded as some objective fact (like gravity) by mankind.
In the same way I do not care in the slightest whether or not you believe my existence is fact.

#2-God does care tremendously about having a personal relationship with each one of us. Similarly, I care if you (Jobar) actually wished to become friends despite the fact I live in Seattle.

#3-Ones attitude towards God determines their relationship/revelation of God. Just like your attitude towards me would greatly affect your ability to form a relationship with me.


See above. Because IF God exists THEN he is a sentient being, not just a lifeless, inanimate object. As such, our attitude towards God affects our revelation of him.


No, not at all. I think what you really want to know is why I think God is different than an invisible pink unicorn. Short answer: mankind has no revelation of an invisible pink unicorn...mankind does have a revelation of God. Long answer: probably another topic.


Technically incorrect. I could choose not to divulge a proof of Pythagoreans Theorem a^2+b^2 = c^2...this doesn't mean it was 'proven invalid'.

Thoughts and comments welcomed,


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Philosoft

Oops. I don't think you thought this idea through, for the following reasons:

1) Is it your position that any claimed personal revelation by the IPU is a priori false? Or is there some cryptic definition of "revelation" you're working with?

2) It seems turnabout may be fair play. Maybe you aren't privy to the IPU's revelations because of your unaccepting attitude toward her existence.

Now, you might be considering including the Bible as a necessary part of revelation, but I sincerely hope you realize what a mistake that would be.

Biff the unclean

I think a few picked up on this (Biff the Unclean). This dialog IS my proof. It is proof that 'X's revelation of Y is dependant upon X's attitude towards Y'. In this case...X is Goliath...Y is me.
Don't quote me as a source. I understood what you were trying to show and I also understand that you failed to show it.
What you choose to call "revelation" fills all the specs of what the rest of us call "hallucination."
You comment earlier of how this mental aberration seemed more real than your normal life shows that in your heart of hearts you already know it isn't real. You would never make a comment like that about anything in reality. But you feel the need to cling to it.
My heart goes out to you. There are few things sadder than truly religious people.

galiel

Are you referring to Mankind, the World Wrestling Entertainment celebrity? Because I question your authority to speak on behalf of the entire human race--or are you only including men in your generalization? I have certainly had no revelation of either. Should your assertion override my personal experience? That would seem to run counter to your original premise.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Biff,

If I did fail to show it...
.
.
.
.
.
.
...you would have no reason to respond and call it a 'hallucination'.

Would you?

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

TerryTryon

Non Sequitur, Begging the Question. If your claim to a revelation from your god is fundamentally different from the hypothetical Unicornist's revelation from the IPU, how can I verify it. The guy who sold me the $500 vacuum cleaner was very sincere, and the damn thing blew out the second week. I don't take things this important solely on a person's word. Been burnt too many times.

I am not asking for proof, I just want a method for determining to a reasonable level, whether your revelation is truth, sting, hallucination, self-deception, or a bad joke. How can I verify it? Or is it another instance where only a "proper attitude" will suffice?

[ November 08, 2002: Message edited by: TerryTryon ]</p>

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Terry,
There actually IS a method to do this: seek God with an open heart. If God exists you will have evidence...if God does not...you won't.


Don't assume He exists...but be open and seek.


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Biff the unclean

But you are the one who is claiming that you are so special that god reveals himself to you.

The rest of us are privy to no information at all that would even suggest that there was any god. What ever the hell a god even is.
We don't see anything that's not revealing itself. All we see is your claim that you know things that you have no possible way of knowing. Your claims that you don't back up.