Foxhole Atheist

The early writings of the old testament, and some newly found documents known as the Qumran Fragment, depicted a 3 tiered universe. This depiction was the “world view” of the majority of theological writers of that age and consisted of the Earth floating in the Great Deep with the Foundations of Heaven encircling the floating earth. (a grounding of this foundation is never explained.) From the Foundations of Heaven rose the Heaven of the Sky, or the Firmament. At the apex of this “Dome” of Heaven was the Gate of Heaven through which Heaven was accessed. Above this Firmament, and the Gate of Heaven, was Heaven itself along with the Waters of the Firmament. The Sun, Moon, Clouds and the Stars were all depicted as being contained within the dome of the Firmament. Within the plane of the dome itself were the Windows of Heaven. The following pieces of Christian/Hebrew scripture are portions of the description of the universe.

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”
Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”
Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”
Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”
Job 37:18, Elihu asks Job, “Can you beat out the vault of the skies, as he does, hard as a mirror of cast metal…”
Job 9:8, “...who by himself spread out the heavens
Psalm 19:1, “The heavens tell out the glory of God, the vault of heaven reveals his handiwork.”
Isaiah 45:12, “I, with my own hands, stretched out the heavens and caused all their host to shine...”
Isaiah 48:13, “...with my right hand I formed the expanse of the sky.”
Qumran fragment: 1 Enoch 33:1-2, “I went to the extreme ends of the earth and saw there huge beasts, each different from the other and different birds (also) differing from one another in appearance, beauty, and voice. And to the east of those beasts, I saw the ultimate ends of the earth which rests on the heaven. And the gates of heaven were open, and I saw how the stars of heaven come out.”
Job 26:7, “He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.”
Qumran fragment: Enoch 18:1 and 18:2, An angel also showed Enoch the storerooms of the winds and the cornerstone of the earth.

This, then, was the understanding of the extent of the Universe. Now, with the understanding that the sciences have given us, Christians and other theologians are attributing the Wonders of the Universe to the creation powers of their god. They now claim the universe out to the known extent of 13 billion light years to be of their god’s creation.

The above scripture, and certainly more is available in the Christian bible, do not establish anything further in the physical universe beyond what is express above. I’ve seen many drawings depicting the universe by theologians as something less in total volume of the now known planet earth. How then do we go from a hunk of rock on a “Cake Dish”, the impression I have developed from viewing the pictures and drawings, to the extent of what the Hubble telescope can now discern? In what fashion do Christians, and other theists, form a view of the universe that extends beyond the dome of this “cake dish”? Where in scripture is there a description that encompasses the now known universe?

NOGO

I have debated this point with many believers who attempt to deny the view of the cosmos that the Bible describes.

People who wish that creation be thought in schools usually think that the bible describes the creation of the world that we know today. What you have indicated is that it doesn't. However believers have a blind spot when it comes to Biblical imperfections.

My favourite quote is Isaiah 40:22
"It is he (God) that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in."

The heavens are as a tent to dwell in.

[ May 25, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

davidH

Yes, I have seen this.
It was what the people in those times believe the earth was like - they could offer no other explanation.

Don't forget that it wasn't that long ago that everyone believed the earth was flat - they laughed at Christopher Coulumbus (I think) for suggesting that the world was round. I mean how could everything hang together unless the earth was flat...was their understanding.

If you look as far as you can you can detect no roundness of the earth - unless you are looking at a ship disappearing over the horizon (which is probably at a guess what lead Christopher to think that maybe the earth was round.

From space and the knowledge we have now we can understand things that people in those days could only guess at.


One verse that maybe you should read which is an interesting one, is this;

Job 38 v 12 - 14

The LORD is speaking to Job here and asks him if he has ever made the sun come up and ordered it where to go and all.
Notice how God describes the dawn.

"It takes on form like clay under a seal, and stands out like a garment."

At first this doesn't seem clear at all, but you have to know a little history about the seal.

God explains that the earth is like a Babylonian seal cylinder turning on the clay to leave its imprint. - Many of these ancient seals can be seen in the British museum - on the rounded cylinder was the incised inscription, a stick was pushed down the hole through the cylinder and this enabled the owner to roll the cylinder over the clay so leaving the impression on the tablet.

What makes the sun rise? God says that it is because the earth turns like a seal as if on an axis.

Interesting that, not the view that the sun and the stars move around the earth, but rather that the earth turned as if on an axis.

When the people of Israel praised God for the heavens and the earth how else would you expect them to declare God's glory in the heavens?
It is as no surprise that they do it in a way that shows how they could see the heavens and the earth.
Did you really expect them to come out and say - praise God for the gravity that keeps us falling off the earth etc etc?
No, when they praised God we see that they used the knowledge they had at that time to do it - the Bible isn't and never has promoted a flat earth, vaulted heavens etc - it has recorded men's praise of God - unaltered since those ancient times.

But the verse I have given you is an example of a time when God has in simple language of that time explained abit about his creation - beyond the scope of the human ablity to find out at that time.

The verse I gave is an example of how knowledge of the past is needed to understand the things that were written in the past.

Wizardry

This is one of those myths they teach in American history that I really wish would stop. The ancient Greeks were well aware of the spherical nature of the earth as evidenced by Aristotle’s argument that the Earth casts a circular shadow on the moon and the fact that Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the planet some sixteen hundred years before there was even a Spain to finance Columbus.

Columbus was no visionary. In fact, he would have died at sea had it not been for the Americas. His estimates for the size of the earth was too small and his estimate for Marco Polo’s trip was too large. If the Americas did not exist, Columbus would have died at sea.

Edited to add reference I found:<a href="http://www-spof.gsfc.nasa.gov/stargaze/Scolumb.htm" target="_blank">here</a>

[ May 25, 2002: Message edited by: Wizardry ]</p>

davidH

ok, hadn't realised about the ancient Greeks - thanks for pointing that out.

Though it would probably be that Columbus proved that the earth was round to those at that time?

But as pointed out the Hebrew belief of the universe was as follows;

1. Pillars like foundations, supported the earth which was round and flat.

2. The arch of the heavens(the firament) rested like a dome on the mountain tops.

3. Waters, under the earth and over the dome, had been separated by God at the creation.

4. Floods came from the waters of the great deep below and rain came through the "windows" in the dome.

5. The sun, moon and stars moved across the dome.

6. "Sheol" the home of the spirits of the dead, lay within the earth.

Someone7

<a href="http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm" target="_blank">http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1990/1/1flat90.html" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1990/1/1flat90.html</a>
<a href="http://www.skepticfriends.org/articles/showquestion.asp?faq=4&fldAuto=61" target="_blank">http://www.skepticfriends.org/articles/showquestion.asp?faq=4&fldAuto=61</a>
<a href="http://www.student.oulu.fi/~ktikkane/eU_LITT.html" target="_blank">http://www.student.oulu.fi/~ktikkane/eU_LITT.html</a>
<a href="http://www.answering-christianity.com/earth_flat.htm" target="_blank">http://www.answering-christianity.com/earth_flat.htm</a> - Muslim site
<a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/cosmo_bibl.htm" target="_blank">http://www.religioustolerance.org/cosmo_bibl.htm</a>

[ May 26, 2002: Message edited by: Someone7 ]</p>

Bede

And not forgetting:

<a href="http://www.bede.org.uk/flatearth.htm" target="_blank">The Myth of the Flat Earth</a> from yours truly .

Yours

Bede

<a href="http://www.bede.org.uk" target="_blank">Bede's Library - faith and reason</a>

Happy Wonderer

So they believed that the sun was flat, like a seal.

I'm not sure if you are really trying to argue that this shows a supernatural being attempting to explain the universe as we now know it to a primitive people.

What I get out of it is a pretty analogy. The sun looks like a seal set into the sky. (if you happen to live somewhere other than the Pacific NorthWet where it RAINS all the time, grr!) Obviously the sun moves, first appearing at one end of the horizon and disappearing at the opposite end. It isn't a terribly large leap from that observed behavior to the poetic analogy of a wax seal under a roller.

I don't think this says anything to surprising about the ancients knowing that the earth turns about its axis (which was well known to the Incas and other civilizations long before Christ.) From observations, man has come up with many models of the earth and universe; some happened to be closer to reality than others.

HW

Bede

HW,

I'm intrigued. I knew about Aristarchus of Samos presenting the hypothesis of a heliocentric system although it would be wrong to say the Greeks 'knew' this as no one took any notice of him (it seemed a silly idea). But what of other civilisations? Do you have any references - especially for the Incas?

Yours

Bede

<a href="http://www.bede.org.uk" target="_blank">Bede's Library - faith and reason</a>

Someone7

Yes, you are a good example of a Christian admitting that the bible does indicate a flat Earth.