Freethought & Rationalism Archive

philechat · 06-05-2002, 05:16 PM

"Miraculous things"? Beware. A Taiwanese Buddhist or an Indian Hindu might attribute it to a different Diety mind you. People used the paradigm of their own culture/religion to explain unexplanable events, and atheists would say "I don't know. I will find it out."

And there is also the psychological phenomona called "comfirmation bias". For example, if I believed I have good luck, I would more likely remember the times good things happen to me than the numerous times they don't. Ditto for believing in bad luck.

When I was a child I believed in ghosts and self-made goddesses, and "voila" I actually saw ghosts and my goddesses. People see spirits of their ancestors, Muses, and sucessful Shamanistic rituals. Thousands of Chinese people saw Buddha just a few months ago.

And, migrane headaches makes me see jagged lines in the mornings at the side of my vision field, as well as swrils when staring at bright surface. Hallucinations (maybe I am mildly psychotic) appear from time to time when I am under effects of strong emotions or music.

These are not conducive to the existence of any gods, especially the Biblical God however. The God of the Bible said he was the only god, but how come the other Dieties and spiritual beings appeared in the religious experiences of non-Christians?

Think about it. And read some literature on neuroscience as well as world mythology

[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: philechat ]

HelenM · 06-05-2002, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by ax:

I rekon that the bible does a crapy job at describing God, I believe the god of the bible exists, but the bible paints him in a poor light.

If you think that, you might enjoy reading what liberal Christians believe.

They have some sort of belief in God but believe that the Bible is man's imperfect attempt to describe him, corrupted by human evil and ambition, though, and tainted by our own limited viewpoints.

And maybe there are things condoned in the Bible because the people of the time thought 'surely God must like this' - and things abhorred because they thought "surely God must abhorr this" that we no longer condone and abhorr...it's like, say, if you go back in time all you could do is take black-and-white photos, or paint people; now we can make color videos...

So, as a liberal you are free to say, those people experienced something real and that something was God; but they didn't quite have it right; that sets you free from having to say that the genocide in the OT was justified, that eternal torture is really gonna happen to billions, that women can't lead, that homosexual behavior is wicked and evil...etc etc

You might want to look into those viewpoints. Just...to know what's out there...

Not that I'm saying the liberals are right

Who knows. Only God knows who - if anyone - is right!!!

(note to helen-bipolar?! cool [ i'm not alone!!])

Yeah really

There are others here too; and if you included anyone with anxiety disorder or unipolar depression, you'd be surprised, probably, how many people here are on psych meds, or have been, or have been or are in counseling.

(And I infer nothing from that!!

)

love
Helen

Queen of Swords · 06-05-2002, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by ax:
I guess he said to us
"go tell everyone about me. I leave it in your hands".
we said "yes" and then forgot what he said

And he couldn't bother to remind anyone?

and to cover up that they wrote things like,
"all the scriptures are god inspired, or spirit breathed" or whatever. 

And he couldn't bother to correct anyone?

Why was this god not interested in getting the truth with a capital T out? Does he like being misrepresented, or does he not have the power to correct false things being said about him?

I cannot deny his existance, I grew up in a penticostel church, and have seen many *mirracueles things.

Three concepts :

1. Placebo effect
2. Deception
3. Inexplicable events do not automatically equal any particular god's existence.

ax · 06-05-2002, 06:59 PM

I don't think god likes being interpretated to be slack or whatever, but he's given us a responsibility to tell others of him, if he interferred with that then he'd have to jump in on lots of other times. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

gilly54 · 06-05-2002, 08:40 PM

Quote:

And there is nothing worse than a stubborn stick-in-the-mud ruler who doesn't change with the times, shows favoritism to certain peoples over others, and doesn't take into account new scientific research in making

policy.

Sounds like a description of the Pope!

Queen of Swords · 06-05-2002, 11:57 PM

Originally posted by ax:
I don't think god likes being interpretated to be slack or whatever, but he's given us a responsibility to tell others of him, if he interferred with that then he'd have to jump in on lots of other times.

This would be the god who "jumped in" numerous times in the Old Testament? Who spoke to people personally there? This would be the god who "jumped in" to the point of sacrificing his only son, but can't be bothered to "jump in" to correct errors that might turn people away from him?

Mysterious ways, indeed.

I don't see what's so wrong about a god who, for example, "jumps in" to stop the Holocaust, or to prevent a child from being raped. Do you?

HelenM · 06-06-2002, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ax:
I don't think god likes being interpretated to be slack or whatever, but he's given us a responsibility to tell others of him, if he interfered with that then he'd have to jump in on lots of other times.

I'll say it again...you either trust God or you don't.

If you don't you can find a million ways, from the Bible, to allege that God is - well, basically, an asshole. (And therefore, since that's unthinkable of God, God cannot exist.)

If you do then you believe that He has a reason for the way He does things, that is always for the ultimate good.

Your a priori beliefs will determine whether you use the Bible to defend God or as a means to say "your God is abhorrent to me" or "a good God cannot exist".

A prior beliefs can change. Sometimes they do.

But I hope you'll (anyone reading, not just you, ax!

) at least be honest that the way you use the Bible has as much to do with your beliefs as it does with what the Bible actually says. Your beliefs drive the filter through which you read and interpret what it says.

love
Helen

Panta Pei · 06-06-2002, 10:33 AM

"I'll say it again...you either trust God or you don't."

Well, Helen, I have to give you points for consistency. I swear you and my wife must get some sort of secret newsletter

The reality of it is...and I, too, will say it again...you either pretend in God or you don't.

The rest of the argument quickly decays into emotionally charged nonsense.

Let me know when you see members of the First Assembly of Atheists imposing their will into the personal lives of families and I will reassess my position.

As it stands now, the offenders are the pretenders and I will no longer passively allow their assertions to go unchallenged.

HelenM · 06-06-2002, 12:19 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Panta Pei:
Well, Helen, I have to give you points for consistency. I swear you and my wife must get some sort of secret newsletter

Christians call it 'the unity of the Holy Spirit'

love
Helen

SanDiegoAtheist · 06-06-2002, 12:32 PM

[quote]Originally posted by HelenSL:

Quote:

Originally posted by Panta Pei:
[qb]Well, Helen, I have to give you points for consistency. I swear you and my wife must get some sort of secret newsletter

Christians call it 'the unity of the Holy Spirit'

love
Helen[/QB]

Well then Helen...

As you and anti-Helen so aptly demonstrate, perhaps the "Holy Spirit" suffers from some form of multiple personality disorder.

Call me back when His Ghostliness decides on one particular point of view.

Cheers,

The San Diego Atheist

06-05-2002, 05:16 PM	#71
philechat Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Mind of the Other Posts: 886	"Miraculous things"? Beware. A Taiwanese Buddhist or an Indian Hindu might attribute it to a different Diety mind you. People used the paradigm of their own culture/religion to explain unexplanable events, and atheists would say "I don't know. I will find it out." And there is also the psychological phenomona called "comfirmation bias". For example, if I believed I have good luck, I would more likely remember the times good things happen to me than the numerous times they don't. Ditto for believing in bad luck. When I was a child I believed in ghosts and self-made goddesses, and "voila" I actually saw ghosts and my goddesses. People see spirits of their ancestors, Muses, and sucessful Shamanistic rituals. Thousands of Chinese people saw Buddha just a few months ago. And, migrane headaches makes me see jagged lines in the mornings at the side of my vision field, as well as swrils when staring at bright surface. Hallucinations (maybe I am mildly psychotic) appear from time to time when I am under effects of strong emotions or music. These are not conducive to the existence of any gods, especially the Biblical God however. The God of the Bible said he was the only god, but how come the other Dieties and spiritual beings appeared in the religious experiences of non-Christians? Think about it. And read some literature on neuroscience as well as world mythology [ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: philechat ]</p>

06-05-2002, 05:53 PM	#73
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by ax: <strong>I guess he said to us "go tell everyone about me. I leave it in your hands". we said "yes" and then forgot what he said</strong> And he couldn't bother to remind anyone? <strong>and to cover up that they wrote things like, "all the scriptures are god inspired, or spirit breathed" or whatever. </strong> And he couldn't bother to correct anyone? Why was this god not interested in getting the truth with a capital T out? Does he like being misrepresented, or does he not have the power to correct false things being said about him? <strong>I cannot deny his existance, I grew up in a penticostel church, and have seen many *mirracueles things.</strong> Three concepts : 1. Placebo effect 2. Deception 3. Inexplicable events do not automatically equal any particular god's existence.

06-05-2002, 11:57 PM	#76
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by ax: <strong>I don't think god likes being interpretated to be slack or whatever, but he's given us a responsibility to tell others of him, if he interferred with that then he'd have to jump in on lots of other times. </strong> This would be the god who "jumped in" numerous times in the Old Testament? Who spoke to people personally there? This would be the god who "jumped in" to the point of sacrificing his only son, but can't be bothered to "jump in" to correct errors that might turn people away from him? Mysterious ways, indeed. I don't see what's so wrong about a god who, for example, "jumps in" to stop the Holocaust, or to prevent a child from being raped. Do you?

06-06-2002, 12:19 PM	#79
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Panta Pei: <strong>Well, Helen, I have to give you points for consistency. I swear you and my wife must get some sort of secret newsletter </strong> Christians call it 'the unity of the Holy Spirit' love Helen

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06-05-2002, 05:23 PM	#72
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	Originally posted by ax: I rekon that the bible does a crapy job at describing God, I believe the god of the bible exists, but the bible paints him in a poor light. If you think that, you might enjoy reading what liberal Christians believe. They have some sort of belief in God but believe that the Bible is man's imperfect attempt to describe him, corrupted by human evil and ambition, though, and tainted by our own limited viewpoints. And maybe there are things condoned in the Bible because the people of the time thought 'surely God must like this' - and things abhorred because they thought "surely God must abhorr this" that we no longer condone and abhorr...it's like, say, if you go back in time all you could do is take black-and-white photos, or paint people; now we can make color videos... So, as a liberal you are free to say, those people experienced something real and that something was God; but they didn't quite have it right; that sets you free from having to say that the genocide in the OT was justified, that eternal torture is really gonna happen to billions, that women can't lead, that homosexual behavior is wicked and evil...etc etc You might want to look into those viewpoints. Just...to know what's out there... Not that I'm saying the liberals are right Who knows. Only God knows who - if anyone - is right!!! (note to helen-bipolar?! cool [ i'm not alone!!]) Yeah really There are others here too; and if you included anyone with anxiety disorder or unipolar depression, you'd be surprised, probably, how many people here are on psych meds, or have been, or have been or are in counseling. (And I infer nothing from that!! ) love Helen

06-05-2002, 06:59 PM	#74
ax Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In your mind! Posts: 289	I don't think god likes being interpretated to be slack or whatever, but he's given us a responsibility to tell others of him, if he interferred with that then he'd have to jump in on lots of other times. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

06-06-2002, 10:33 AM	#78
Panta Pei Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: in the middle of things Posts: 722	"I'll say it again...you either trust God or you don't." Well, Helen, I have to give you points for consistency. I swear you and my wife must get some sort of secret newsletter The reality of it is...and I, too, will say it again...you either pretend in God or you don't. The rest of the argument quickly decays into emotionally charged nonsense. Let me know when you see members of the First Assembly of Atheists imposing their will into the personal lives of families and I will reassess my position. As it stands now, the offenders are the pretenders and I will no longer passively allow their assertions to go unchallenged.

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