Freethought & Rationalism Archive

TomboyMom · 06-12-2003, 08:04 AM

I notice that no one actually answered your question.

wildernesse · 06-12-2003, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
Once again: what does culture, or time difference, or anything, have to do with the love of a parent for a child? Such a basic, instinctual love transcends culture. I have a son; the love I feel for him is not cultural.

I beg to differ. The love you feel for your child is most likely a result of cultural conditioning. The way you express love, what you call "love"--cultural. This doesn't make it wrong or false, it is just the way our culture is.

There is a biological basis that wants our biological children to be preserved--but that doesn't mean that what we call "love" is that biological thing.

Quote:

If you feel, today, that it would be wrong to kill the child you love, or have your child be killed, for cursing you, why do you think the culture of 2500 years ago would change that love, that feeling of wrongness?

I don't believe there are universal moral laws--so my idea of "wrongness" today is most likely not going to coincide with other cultures' (past, present, future) idea of "wrongness".

Quote:

The only reason one would do it is because God's Law commanded it, and not to do it would be to break God's Law. So what kind of God would establish such a law, or allow such a law to be established?

What kind of God? The one that rules the world they lived in--an absolute type of thing that controlled the weather, crops, all aspects of a human life. That's very well what they believed in.

Quote:

If the OT Laws were truly from god, as some claim (including the bible), why would god pass down a law that establishes (or codifies) a culture that required a child to be killed for cursing his parents? If they weren't from god, why would Jesus, supposedly God, condone them if he didn't approve of him?

I think that the majority of OT laws are cultural aspects that helped those people explain the world around them--the rules and guidelines for their lives.

Anywho, I will bother with the bit about not being under the law but under grace.

TomboyMom: The question is one no one can actually answer. You can't just ignore culture--as participants in this culture, we cannot even understand how that completely shapes our views.

--tibac

Mageth · 06-12-2003, 08:32 AM

I notice that no one actually answered your question.

Pretty much what I expected. And I take those non-answers as a "No, I would not." I even take wildernesse's cultural dodge as a "no".

Mageth · 06-12-2003, 08:43 AM

Originally posted by wildernesse
I beg to differ. The love you feel for your child is most likely a result of cultural conditioning. The way you express love, what you call "love"--cultural. This doesn't make it wrong or false, it is just the way our culture is.

There is a biological basis that wants our biological children to be preserved--but that doesn't mean that what we call "love" is that biological thing.

Read in the OT about different parents' love for their children - David's, for example. It doesn't sound different than my love for my son. It doesn't sound cultural at all.

2 Samuel 18: 33 - And the king was much moved, and went up to the chamber over the gate, and wept: and as he went, thus he said, O my son Absalom, my son, my son Absalom! would God I had died for thee, O Absalom, my son, my son!
2 Samuel 19:
1 And it was told Joab, Behold, the king weepeth and mourneth for Absalom. 2 And the victory that day was turned into mourning unto all the people: for the people heard say that day how the king was grieved for his son. 3 And the people gat them by stealth that day into the city, as people being ashamed steal away when they flee in battle. 4 But the king covered his face, and the king cried with a loud voice, O my son Absalom, O Absalom, my son, my son! 5 And Joab came into the house to the king, and said, Thou hast shamed this day the faces of all thy servants, which this day have saved thy life, and the lives of thy sons and of thy daughters, and the lives of thy wives, and the lives of thy concubines; 6 In that thou lovest thine enemies, and hatest thy friends. For thou hast declared this day, that thou regardest neither princes nor servants: for this day I perceive, that if Absalom had lived, and all we had died this day, then it had pleased thee well.

What kind of God? The one that rules the world they lived in--an absolute type of thing that controlled the weather, crops, all aspects of a human life. That's very well what they believed in.

You don't think that's the same God Christians today believe in? Jesus claimed to be that same God, did he not?

I think that the majority of OT laws are cultural aspects that helped those people explain the world around them--the rules and guidelines for their lives.

So which of the laws don't fall into that category? Are those few laws universal?

wildernesse · 06-12-2003, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
Read in the OT about different parents' love for their children - David's, for example. It doesn't sound different than my love for my son. It doesn't sound cultural at all.

You are also reading these passages through your cultural lens. We see what we want to see, and how we are trained to see it. Yes, you are right that there are passages that seem to be like our love for our children--and yet think about the fact that David, Jacob, etc. all had at least a dozen children--daughters are rarely mentioned and there is usually a favored son of a favored wife--meaning that there are unfavored sons of unfavored wives in the background often.

Do you think that this reflects our current cultural parental love of children (male and female)?

Quote:

You don't think that's the same God Christians today believe in? Jesus claimed to be that same God, did he not?

I have no problem with the notion that as cultures change, our viewing of God changes. Do I think that God changes? No, I don't believe that--but I also don't believe that anyone has a real handle on this God-business in the first place. So in the end, I come down to: What do I know, or anyone else for that matter, about God? Not much.

Quote:

So which of the laws don't fall into that category? Are those few laws universal?

I don't think there are universal moral laws--maybe the only ones are the biological need to survive, and as a social animal to help your group survive. We're complex creatures, and have developed complex means of doing this.

As for which laws aren't cultural? Well, technically all of them are--as for which ones I think are inspired. .. well the ones that meet the "love your neighbor" standard. IMO.

--tibac

PaladInChrist · 06-12-2003, 12:16 PM

Mageth-

Peace be with you...

I think it is important to realize that the Old Testament laws were put in place to teach us something...we can't live up to them and we need God's grace in order to be saved. We needed to be humbled, so to speak.

The entire problem of sin is one of rebellion and not wanting to be subject to God.

Mageth · 06-12-2003, 12:45 PM

Umm, that's another non-answer, PaladInChrist. What is a law requring that a child that curses his parents must be put to death supposed to teach us?

ex-xian · 06-12-2003, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
Umm, that's another non-answer, PaladInChrist. What is a law requring that a child that curses his parents must be put to death supposed to teach us?

Ditto. Not only that one, but most of the OT laws. It's always funny how xians want to keep the moral laws but toss out the ceremonial and punishment parts.

How you ever actually read the laws in the books of "Moses?"

Below is a small sampling of ridiculous commands in the OT. The full list can be found here .

Quote:

LE 3:17 The eating of blood and fat are prohibited forever.

LE 10:9 Drinking strong drink in the tabernacle of the congregation will result in death.

LE 11:7, DT 14:8 Eating pork is prohibited.

LE 11:20 Eating shellfish is prohibited.

LE 12:2 A woman who has a child, especially a female child, is unclean and purification rites are required.

LE 15:2 When a man has any bodily discharge, it is unclean.

Do you eat rare steak, ejacualte or menstrate, or drink nyquil? Then you've broken god's laws. Please explain how these teach us lessons today.

Quote:

LE 19:27 The hair on the temples should not be rounded off.

LE 19:27 The edges of a beard should not be clipped.

LE 19:28 Tattoos and the like are prohibited.

LE 21:17-23 A priest (or descendant of Aaron) with crushed testicles (or almost any other physical deformity) is not to be allowed near the sanctuary.

LE 25:44-46, DT 15:17, EP 6:5, CN 3:22, TS 2:9, PE 2:18 Slavery is an everlasting institution. Slaves are to obey their masters in everything.

LE 27:3-7 Males are more valuable than females.

I'm tempted to post many more, but I guess you get the idea. Please do visit the web site and explain the lesson we're supposed to learn.

Also, whatever we're supposed to learn, it's a bit rough on the people who were stoned and kicked out the tribe for breaking the rules, wasn't it?

Mageth · 06-12-2003, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by wildernesse
You are also reading these passages through your cultural lens.

No, through the lens of a parent. "O my son Absalom, my son, my son Absalom! would God I had died for thee, O Absalom, my son, my son!". As a father of a son, I know exactly how David must have felt.

We see what we want to see, and how we are trained to see it. Yes, you are right that there are passages that seem to be like our love for our children--and yet think about the fact that David, Jacob, etc. all had at least a dozen children--daughters are rarely mentioned and there is usually a favored son of a favored wife--meaning that there are unfavored sons of unfavored wives in the background often.

Do you think that this reflects our current cultural parental love of children (male and female)?

For many, yes. Parents with multiple children tend to feel a greater identity with some of them than with others, and even to love some more than others. That's natural, not cultural. I have only one child, so it's not a problem with me. I have five siblings, though, and I've seen evidence of that from my parents.

In any case, that does not do much to support a position that a parent's love for a child 2500 years ago would be any different than it is today.

As for which laws aren't cultural? Well, technically all of them are--as for which ones I think are inspired. .. well the ones that meet the "love your neighbor" standard. IMO.

If I understand your view of what can be known about god as stated above ("What do I know, or anyone else for that matter, about God? Not much"), I don't even see how you could think with much confidence that even those laws are inspired, or that the laws you don't like (such as putting to death rebellious children) aren't inspired. If you don't know much about god, you don't know much about what laws he would or would not inspire.

Mageth · 06-12-2003, 01:06 PM

The entire problem of sin is one of rebellion and not wanting to be subject to God.

If a God imposes a Law that says I must put to death my son if he curses me, for whatever reason he might have to impose such a Law, I definitely am not going to be subject to that God. Such a God would not deserve subjection, only scorn. Yes, I can't live up to that law, nor should I. No just God would impose such a law.

This is one example of many in the Bible where I clearly see that my sense of morals is higher than the morals of the God that is portrayted there.

06-12-2003, 08:04 AM	#11
TomboyMom Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,931	typical I notice that no one actually answered your question.

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06-12-2003, 08:32 AM	#13
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I notice that no one actually answered your question. Pretty much what I expected. And I take those non-answers as a "No, I would not." I even take wildernesse's cultural dodge as a "no".

06-12-2003, 08:43 AM	#14
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Originally posted by wildernesse I beg to differ. The love you feel for your child is most likely a result of cultural conditioning. The way you express love, what you call "love"--cultural. This doesn't make it wrong or false, it is just the way our culture is. There is a biological basis that wants our biological children to be preserved--but that doesn't mean that what we call "love" is that biological thing. Read in the OT about different parents' love for their children - David's, for example. It doesn't sound different than my love for my son. It doesn't sound cultural at all. 2 Samuel 18: 33 - And the king was much moved, and went up to the chamber over the gate, and wept: and as he went, thus he said, O my son Absalom, my son, my son Absalom! would God I had died for thee, O Absalom, my son, my son! 2 Samuel 19: 1 And it was told Joab, Behold, the king weepeth and mourneth for Absalom. 2 And the victory that day was turned into mourning unto all the people: for the people heard say that day how the king was grieved for his son. 3 And the people gat them by stealth that day into the city, as people being ashamed steal away when they flee in battle. 4 But the king covered his face, and the king cried with a loud voice, O my son Absalom, O Absalom, my son, my son! 5 And Joab came into the house to the king, and said, Thou hast shamed this day the faces of all thy servants, which this day have saved thy life, and the lives of thy sons and of thy daughters, and the lives of thy wives, and the lives of thy concubines; 6 In that thou lovest thine enemies, and hatest thy friends. For thou hast declared this day, that thou regardest neither princes nor servants: for this day I perceive, that if Absalom had lived, and all we had died this day, then it had pleased thee well. What kind of God? The one that rules the world they lived in--an absolute type of thing that controlled the weather, crops, all aspects of a human life. That's very well what they believed in. You don't think that's the same God Christians today believe in? Jesus claimed to be that same God, did he not? I think that the majority of OT laws are cultural aspects that helped those people explain the world around them--the rules and guidelines for their lives. So which of the laws don't fall into that category? Are those few laws universal?

06-12-2003, 12:16 PM	#16
PaladInChrist Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: A Paladin In Hell Posts: 114	Mageth- Peace be with you... I think it is important to realize that the Old Testament laws were put in place to teach us something...we can't live up to them and we need God's grace in order to be saved. We needed to be humbled, so to speak. The entire problem of sin is one of rebellion and not wanting to be subject to God.

06-12-2003, 12:45 PM	#17
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Umm, that's another non-answer, PaladInChrist. What is a law requring that a child that curses his parents must be put to death supposed to teach us?

06-12-2003, 12:59 PM	#19
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Originally posted by wildernesse You are also reading these passages through your cultural lens. No, through the lens of a parent. "O my son Absalom, my son, my son Absalom! would God I had died for thee, O Absalom, my son, my son!". As a father of a son, I know exactly how David must have felt. We see what we want to see, and how we are trained to see it. Yes, you are right that there are passages that seem to be like our love for our children--and yet think about the fact that David, Jacob, etc. all had at least a dozen children--daughters are rarely mentioned and there is usually a favored son of a favored wife--meaning that there are unfavored sons of unfavored wives in the background often. Do you think that this reflects our current cultural parental love of children (male and female)? For many, yes. Parents with multiple children tend to feel a greater identity with some of them than with others, and even to love some more than others. That's natural, not cultural. I have only one child, so it's not a problem with me. I have five siblings, though, and I've seen evidence of that from my parents. In any case, that does not do much to support a position that a parent's love for a child 2500 years ago would be any different than it is today. As for which laws aren't cultural? Well, technically all of them are--as for which ones I think are inspired. .. well the ones that meet the "love your neighbor" standard. IMO. If I understand your view of what can be known about god as stated above ("What do I know, or anyone else for that matter, about God? Not much"), I don't even see how you could think with much confidence that even those laws are inspired, or that the laws you don't like (such as putting to death rebellious children) aren't inspired. If you don't know much about god, you don't know much about what laws he would or would not inspire.

06-12-2003, 01:06 PM	#20
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	The entire problem of sin is one of rebellion and not wanting to be subject to God. If a God imposes a Law that says I must put to death my son if he curses me, for whatever reason he might have to impose such a Law, I definitely am not going to be subject to that God. Such a God would not deserve subjection, only scorn. Yes, I can't live up to that law, nor should I. No just God would impose such a law. This is one example of many in the Bible where I clearly see that my sense of morals is higher than the morals of the God that is portrayted there.

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