JerryM

Some very astute observations on the inherent contradictions of prayer. Those who believe, will pray because it makes them feel better--it gives them a sense that they're doing something positive. But to pray for God's intervention really conflicts with orthodox Christian theology. In the Book of Matthew, Jesus teaches the Lord's Prayer as the model for how one should pray:
"Our Father, who art in heaven, etc...
Thy kingdom come,
THY WILL BE DONE,
on earth as it in in heaven..."
Jesus clearly says that one should pray for GOD'S will to be done, not OUR will. But isn't this superfluous? The Christian believes that God's will must be done anyway--if something is in accordance with God's will, how can it not happen? So what good is praying for God to do something?

Viti

Congrats on your impending parenthood!

This topic sort of set me off so I hope you don't mind a rant. I think many many people use "I'll pray for you" or "I have been praying about such and such" so they don't have to actually DO anything practical.

Some of you know I am donating a kidney very soon...and I have had enough of "Oh you are doing God's work", or "You must be an angel, I will pray for you both" and not nearly enough of "Is there anything I can do to help?" (don't even get me started on the nosy questions that lead me to tell them in the first damn place, I do NOT volunteer this information IRL to mere acquaintances). It would be nice if someone offered to watch my dogs, or fix my husband a meal, or give Steve (the recipient) a ride to one of his daily follow-up appointments...but no....I get a bunch of nosy inquiries due to my doctor's visits then a BS "I admire what you're doing, I'll pray for you" yeah well...thanks but why don't you go help another human being in some meaningful way in my honor?

The Other Michael

I'd be tempted to buy a brick if I could give it to the character in "Krazy Kat" who seems to know what to do with them.

cheers,
Michael

Tercel

Hi all,
I would have to agree that the average unthinking Christian probably has rather problematic thoughts in thinking that they can convince God to do something if they pray enough, and in thinking that God's will is always done.

With regard to prayer, I think it is absurd to think we can change God's mind and seems seriously against traditional Christian doctrine. (I don't need counterexamples from the Bible quoted at me, I know they're there and I'm happy ignoring them) God knows what is best already and doesn't need us to tell him what to do.

One of the primary values of prayer is well-wishing and developing a heart for others. An interpretation of "Know that many, many Christians are praying for a full recovery;" is that lots of people care for you and love you and wish the best for you.

If prayer does do something, then I think that's allowing God to channel his power through willing participants. "Through all things God works for good with those who love him". I would say that generally God limits his participation to that of working through believers and people desiring to do good. Through prayer we open ourselves to God and his power to work in our lives.

Perhaps in America it's different and everyone's a Christian because of peer pressure and the only atheists are those who've investigated religion and found it wanting. But in my country where ~40% are "no religion" according to the latest census, knowledge of Church history, theology and the Bible is equally bad if not worse among the non-believers than it is with the fundies. I should add that in my experience, non Evangelicals tend to be a bit more knowledgeable about their beliefs.
I think I could probably give you a run for your money though...

Hehe, the bricks sound fun:
"This is not a brick."
"Can God make a brick so heavy that He can't lift it?"
"I don't exist"
"This brick is an illusion"



I think, therefore I am a Christian
Tercel

Icarus

Hey there Tercel,

Why would you want to do this, rather than integrate such difficult passages into your theological framework?

Then is this just something you say? If you will allow me to play the role of Paul in 1 Cor. 15, then if supplication is ineffective, why do Christians wish me well by paying lip service to it?

I don't have access to a bible, otherwise I would check to context of your quote. In all fairness, then, would you say that the cited passage is related to prayer? Perhaps when you read it, you take this meaning away from the text, but I am not yet convinced that your theological inference is supported in Romans 8.

As for the general thrust of your assertion, how is your conviction any more consistent than that of the 'unthinking' Christians of whom we speak? I see little difference between the role of human behavior (prayer) in the consummation of God's will and the role of human predisposition (faith, empathy) therein. You suggest that God's will is influenced by believers' desire for the good or their love for him, though you also maintain that God's will is not alterable by human contingency. These two positions must be reconciled.

It is not out of the question that I misunderstood your point, so it might be helpful if you specify how prayer frees God's power, and therefore will, in the lives of believers and how this differs from the original situation I offered.

You may have me there, since I was only an American, Evangelical minister previously.

Thanks,

Icarus

NOGO

Not only are they there but from Jesus himself.
Since you don't want to be quoted at I will simply allude to.

Jesus praying just before he is arrested.
"Let this cup pass from me"
"Let thy will be done not mine"

Tercel, what other part of the Gospels do you prefer ignoring?

Sorry, I could not hold it back.

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

lpetrich

Thus making it a complete waste of time. One might as well perform exorcism.

"Actions speak louder than words" (metaphorically, of course)

Tercel

Hmm, not sure I follow. I think they're plain wrong, not "difficult". Why would I want to integrate them?

The cited passage was completely out of context and unrelated to anything useful. It wasn't cited as a claim to Biblical support, but 'cos it was a nice statement that summarised well my ideas.

~sigh~ I see the whole omniscience predestination vs freewill debate looming here.
My point is that God doesn't need us telling him to do stuff - he already knows it. God isn't some indecisive entity who changes his mind when requested. However, I believe that we can change things because God will use our prayer to improve our character, work through us, and perhaps he will answer prayer to encourage further prayer.
I saying prayer can have an effect, but its primary purpose is not to "convince" God to answer it.

I put my foot in it, did I?
As I see it, the Evangelicals spend so much time reminding themselves of the great merits of their "Inerrant Word of God" Bible and the remainder telling other people about the same that they have comparatively little time for, and place comparatively little emphasis on, learning about their faith compared to some of the other branches of Christianity.

Tercel

Not at all.

Of course.
"Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?" -James 2:15-16

Starboy

Greetings Bibliophile,

The scary thing about her comment is that she is spot on, however the being taking control is not God. Extreme examples of this are called cults. What people fail to recognize is that there is not a difference in kind only one of degree between what your mother is involved in and a full blown cult.

Starboy