Icarus

Please be advised that the following are observations and not arguments, not that this makes all that much difference in the current context. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

I am oftentimes puzzled by the notion of 'God's will.' My mother-in-law was in the hospital recently, having surgery on her cancerous liver. I received a personal letter from a former elder that contained two previously rather benign statements that took on a new significance in light of my atheism:

• Know that many, many Christians are praying for a full recovery; and,
• No matter what happens today, know that it is what God wanted. It is his will.

Note that these two statements are not contradictory, and rest snuggly within the confines of 'God's ineffable mystery.' However, notice how the writer wants to have his cake and eat it too. The first statement is indicative of a theological conviction that God's decision can be influenced by the needs and desires of human beings and that this influence would be brought to bear in this particular occasion. It is a call to faith that God will deliver our loved one in a time of crisis. Note that the second statement, intended to provide some measure of consolation in case our worst fears came true, is cut from a different cloth. It does not indicate that God didn't listen or that he'd just as soon see my wife's mother burn in hell for not attending church since her ex-husband/preacher/professor had an affair and ran off to Boston. Instead, it implies that God sees the bigger picture, that he knows what is best, and that he will always take the most fair and ultimately benevolent course of action, no matter how it appears to us.

The writer, and so many others like him, cannot have it both ways. God is either influenced by the direct entreaties of his followers, in which case he is affirmed when the outcome is consonant with the request or refuted when it is not, or he acts according to his all-knowing, all-loving nature, in which case prayer itself is ineffective and largely meaningless. It should be obvious, however, that he is not both.

To me it appears that Christians need the reassuring reinforcement garnered from experiences where circumstance aligns with call. It strengthens the delusion that God is there and that he cares for them, and this in turn elicits the positive feelings associated with theistic rewards. It is too difficult for them, however, to bear the weight of denied requests, so they counter their self-doubt and negative feelings with the likewise reassuring notion that God is beyond human desires and knows their needs better than they do.

I find this unnecessarily convoluted dichotomy pitiable and wish that Christians would learn to face the sometimes ugly reality presented them with the rugged honesty that philosophical--and in this particular case, theological--consistency requires.

Now for the slash content:

My wife and I will have a baby next spring. We made the announcement to our relatives this past weekend, and I encountered a strange response in some. First, my uncle sticks his foot in his mouth (not realizing he's on speaker phone) and exclaims, "Praise God, maybe this is just the thing that boy needs to wake up and get right with God again." Later my grandmother asks if I will raise my new child in a God-fearing home, to which I respond in the negative. She then wonders aloud when I will snap out of it and stop being so stubborn.

It's no secret that some theists contend that even atheists believe in God, and these two family members tend to think the same. Neither seems to think I am even an atheist, but am instead going through a phase. Perhaps they believe I am mad at God? Or maybe over a disagreement, have allowed my pride to come between us? I'm sure this experience is quite common around here, affecting the manner in which theists interact with their would-be-converts.

I began thinking, however, about how this condition affects the theist herself. If they truly believe it is impossible for a person to not believe in God, how seriously could they have considered other options besides believing in God? Have they ever given atheism a fair hearing, providing themselves the opportunity to test this peculiar belief? How could they possibly be able? I have a good deal of trouble imagining it.

So I have a difficult time respecting the quality and depth of any theist's beliefs when they come at me with the foolish and demeaning observation, "How can you say their is no God, when you really know otherwise? Now tell me what's really the matter."

2 cents,

Icarus

Terracotta

Hello Icarus.

First off, congrats on the baby! My husband and I are hoping to soon be able to make that same announcement to our families. Not pregnant yet, though.

The cognitive dissonance between prayer for outcomes/God's will was a large burden for me in my Xian walk. I never quite understood how the two worked together. Now that I'm away from it all, I see that notion as ludicrous. It seems like a cop-out to me.

freemonkey

Congratulations on the new baby, Icarus.

The 2 points you raise are good ones. I've often wondered just how deeply people who act this way look into their own thoughts and beliefs as well.

It seems there really are people who don't question what they are told, and just don't see the contradictions that are obvious to others. Makes it easy to project their "certainty" onto everyone else.

Walter_Mitty

Icarus, most of them haven't even read their Bibles, much less considered the finer points of atheism.

But I certainly can relate...

I finally had this conversation with dear old mom (bear in mind I'm a grown man). Suffice to say it did not go well with her. We now have "agreed not to discuss it."

The problem is, despite our agreement, she still sees fit to slip in "Christianisms" when we talk. Since I have adopted the doctrine of passive agression--when witnessed to--I now defend my position. Naturally, this leads to some "heated" discussions.

Recently she mailed me the transcript from one of the recent sermons at her church. Naturally, the topic was unbelief. The gist of the whole reason we "refuse" to believe in God (the Christian one naturally) is that "we" are afraid to let "him" take control of our lives.

Sadly, my mom believes this rubbish and she also thinks this may be a "phase" I'm going through. Considering I'm in my 30's, I guess this was a late phase!

But for embarrassing my mom, I had half a mind to mark that sermon up and send it back to the pastor.

The problem is generally two-fold:

1) The man in the white robe STILL teaches that atheists actively deny God--the average Christian buys into it.

2) The average Christian's knowledge of church history, theology, and the bible are so lacking that it's all but impossible for one of our ilk (ilk meaning the secular who have examined the bible) to have a conversation with these people.

At least I had a chuckle...

She also sent me an solicitation for donnations. Seems the "Church" is building a new school. For $20 one can "buy a brick" to help defray costs. The best part is you get your name on the brick with a small saying of your choice.

Some examples:

God Bless America

God So Love the World...

Lutheran Schools care a lot

Well, I was mighty tempted to send $20 and request that under my name be written the words:

"This brick courtesy of one Infidel"

Doubt they'd even allow it but I had a good chuckle.

Icarus

Thanks to all concerning the baby.

I hope all goes well for you and your husband, Terracotta. Perhaps you will have a more accepting family? I must admit that as a Christian I accepted such absurdities without devoting much thought to them. I attributed such theology to the mysterious paradoxes of God, which was preacher-talk for we can't explain it, but are feeble-minded and like it that way. That you had the courage to examine such peculiarities as a Christian is commendable; you were well ahead of me!

Freemonkey, it does fascinate me how some people will identify and question given assumptions and how others will never notice them, let alone evaluate them in any way. Everyone is blind to at least a few assumptions embedded within their worldviews, but it is tragic that some make a concerted effort to ignore them. Knowing this, I take heed of your observation: inasmuch as I attempt to know myself and my beliefs, I am both confident and open-minded. It is far easier to be 'certain' as you say, when given propositions are accepted without so much as a blink.

Thanks for the laugh, Bibliophile. Your experiences are far too familiar. Apparently I've made the prayer list, which I also receive weekly now. At least it's nice to know some care, misguided though it is. I wish I could name a brick:

"'I think, therefore I am,' not a Christian."

Cogito ergo sum for a new generation of philosophers. I say this tongue-and-cheek, however; I've known some theologians with extraordinary mental powers. Be that as it may, not too many of these respectable individuals sit in pews anymore.

Thanks again everyone,

Icarus

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Icarus ]</p>

atheistdave

Congrats on the baby, your life will forever be changed, but in a good way.

Remember, the burden of proof of a god is on them. You don't have to prove there is no god, they have to prove there is.

We were lucky, all we had to disagree over was the easter bunny BS.

Dave

LordMoneyG

Congrats on the future arrival, Icarus.

And now for my own two cents on the subject...Or, more accurately, George Carlin's two cents (always the bastion of sensible atheism) courtesy of positiveatheism.org - Just felt that these were relevant.

______________________
You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons; first of all, I think he's a good actor. Okay. To me, that counts. Second; he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't fuck around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having trouble with. For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog. Joe Pesci straightened that cock-sucker out with one visit.
I noticed that of all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers that I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50 percent rate. Half the time I get what I want. Half the time I don't. Same as God 50-50. Same as the four leaf clover, the horse shoe, the rabbit's foot, and the wishing well. Same as the mojo man. Same as the voodoo lady who tells your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles. It's all the same; 50-50. So just pick your superstitions, sit back, make a wish and enjoy yourself.
_______________________

I've begun worshipping the Sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the Sun. It's there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There's no mystery, no one asks for money, I don't have to dress up, and there's no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.
_____________________

- LMG

Icarus

atheistdave,

Now that you've encountered the natural, materialistic explanation for all sorts of strange phenomenon associated with the easter bunny, do you ever find yourself doubting, wondering if everyone is really just unable to grasp the awesome power that is the Cadbury-Schweps Co.?

No?

I didn't think so.

Icarus

Icarus

Humorous and strangely endearing.

Thanks LordMoneyG!

Icarus

brighid

Icarus,

If it is any consolation there are thousands of candles lit in Cathedrals through out Europe and America in prayer for my return to Catholicism – courtesy of my mother. She has made it quite clear she is unwilling to examine her assumptions in the best light of reason, but would rather stagnate in the complete darkness of blind faith. Oh well!

Congratulations on the newest addition to your lovely family!

Brighid