madmax2976

Hey David,

It appears your still attempting to promote your unique brand of theism.

First of all this is obviously wrong. There areconsequences to certain actions which is why we avoid them. These consequences have nothing to do with any deity or any supernatural realm of torture.

Secondly, the injustice what your claiming here is glaring in any case. To send away people to be tortured for some supposed crimes is barbaric. Such a sadistic being would be capable of almost any evil. To send away people to be tortured for all eternity for finite crimes is beyond the absurd and obviously a sign of insanity or mental deficiency, which may be at least one reason why some attempt to mollify this claim regarding the biblical God.

I have seen no good reason to believe there is a God or Gods, that we will continue to exist after we die, that there are any other realms for us to go to if we do, that any deity or deities care about us even if such being(s)do exist, etc.

Since it all seems to be mere speculation, I fail to understand why you stopped because it would require further speculation on your part.

Doubting Didymus

Dearest David.

It is obvious to me that you have your own special answer for all spiritual matters that we could ever ask. My question is: how do you know that you are right? Do you have some special method of knowing for yourself that what you're saying is true? (such as faith, or special revelation). If this is the case, how are we to know?

Specific question: How do we, who have never 'felt' god, know that you are not making up your faith based on nothing?

I'm sure you will say 'I know for myself and do not need to prove anything', but then why should you be here at all? Here, we want to know why theists think we should believe in god. We also want to know why theists believe in god themselves. Are you aware that you are actually not saying anything at all? Why should we discuss our beliefs with you, if you won't discuss your own reasons for believing?

How do you know? Why do you think WE should believe this? Do you think saying it makes it true?

luvluv

At this point I would like to re-open my free-will argument and I hope that bd-from kg and Typhon will rejoin me in this discussion. I know we were talking about this a while back and never finished the discussion.

The argument for God's hiddenness, from a free-will standpoint, is that if God was revealed to humanity in all of His power and revealed all of the doctrines of Christianity (or any religion) to be true, He would in effect be eliminating free will. No one could make a decision to worship God on the merits of His character if His power were constanlty in evidence. People would worship him solely out of fear and out of a sense of self-preservation. Salvation through faith avoids the obvious perils of a ever-present super-powerful being constantly observing our behavior. Under such conditions any type of freedom, political, economic, spiritual, would be all but impossible. In other words, as my argument goes, a God with the character that Jesus describes in the gospels would not reveal Himself in his totality to all of humanity because that would destroy the purpose of their existence: to make a free decision to enter into communion with their maker.

Okay, so lets give this discussion a whirl again.

MrDarwin

I'm afraid I don't follow. You're saying that humans cannot make free and informed decisions and choices if they know the truth. That strikes me as rather counterintuitive. Most people would suggest that we make the best decisions when we know all the facts about whatever we're deciding or choosing.

You're also suggesting that God hides the truth from us, knowing that in doing so salvation is withheld from a large number of people who could potentially be saved. Hiding the truth, especially given the consequences, strikes me as rather dishonest.

Oddly enough, that is precisely the argument that many Christians use in trying to persuade people to believe in their God.

And yet I must assume that you, as a Christian, not only believe, but know that there is a God, and that all this is therefore true. You know that this "ever-present super-powerful being" is constantly observing your behavior. How then do you have any freedom of any kind?

madmax2976

This is obviously not true. The only reason to feel "coerced" is if there is a known threat. Obviously if a deity threatens people and people are aware the threat is real, then there would be a reason to fear it. But all the deity has to do is make it clear that it has no intention of torturing or hurting people in any way if they don't do what it wants, and the problem is solved. There's no need to fear a thing if you have no reason to believe that thing will actually do something to you.

On the other hand the biblical God does engage in coercion; it did so in the OT stories and in the NT as well with the threat of eternal torture. So this argument appears to fail on a couple fronts.

A more basic question might be posed anyhow: Why does a deity care whether humans believe it exists or not? Ego? A Superiority Complex? Loneliness?

Goliath

Luvluv,

If the xian god were proven to exist, then I would still not worship such a god. You are therefore demonstrably wrong.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Bible Humper

HELLO DAVID

I'm glad that you have decided to address unanswered questions, hopefully my question was one of the challenges you thought of when you decided to clear up "loose ends".

In my thread <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000444" target="_blank">Faith, Intuition, God in the gaps and B.I.A.Lism for David Mathews</a>, I presented a challenge to you. My challenge was for you to present a single piece of evidence that makes Xianity more probable than Brain-In-A-Laboratoryism, but you were unable to do so.

1) What evidence does theism have that makes it at least as probable as B.I.A.Lism? "B.I.A.Lism in the gaps" arguments are just as strong as "God in the gaps" arguments, simply because it has not yet been proven that either argument applied to anything that is currently unknown is wrong, and that is all either one has going for it.

2a)Since we have yet to find a single B.I.A.Listic phenomenon, and all of the mysteries of all phenomena unraveled to date have proven to be naturalistic, would YOU say that it is logical to work under the assumption that the modern mysteries of abiogenesis, human consciousness and the origin of the universe have non-B.I.A.Listic solutions UNTIL a reason to believe otherwise becomes apparent?

2b)Since we have yet to find a single supernatural phenomenon, and all of the mysteries of all phenomena unraveled to date have proven to be naturalistic, would YOU say that it is logical to work under the assumption that the modern mysteries of abiogenesis, human consciousness and the origin of the universe have naturalistic solutions UNTIL a reason to believe otherwise becomes apparent?

Philosoft

So what? What is the fundamental necessity of free will? Is it necessary because God deems it necessary or is it intrinsically necessary and therefore granted by God? Either way, you've got huge problems.

Jobar

Luvluv, I suggest you start another thread for your purposes, as David has started this one for his. Otherwise things will get very confusing very rapidly. In fact, speaking as a mod, I insist.

David, I have a question, one which I do not recall having seen before. You say that you do not believe in the necessary damnation of those of us who do not believe in Gods- that somehow, sometime, we will each be given the opportunity to decide our ultimate fate *after* we have sufficient evidence to make an informed decision. Have I stated your opinion correctly here?

So, assuming I have- why bother to believe all the seemingly silly and counterintuitive things you say we should believe? Why not just continue as we are, using our human capacity for reason to steer our course through our lives, and keep declaring all talk of undetectable gods pointless nonsense?

Many of us- I might even go so far as to say that ALL of the atheists and agnostics here- have tried to make it clear to you, that given an understanding of how there can be a perfect, all-powerful and all-loving God- who nevertheless creates a world where misery and imperfection abound- we would be willing to believe. Since there is no such understanding to be had for those of us who see no difference between God and any other con game, why should you feel called upon to convince us otherwise? After all, in the great by-and-by all us atheists will be shown the errors of our ways, and allowed to experience the joys of Heaven (or the agonies of Hell if we so choose.)

What reason is there for you to preach to us?

David Mathews

Hello peteyh,

David: That is true.

David: Perhaps God does, but only a small number of humans are spiritually perceptive and bold enough to encounter God. Or perhaps God does not because God wants only a small number of humans to meet Him directly.

David: St. Paul had a job to do and that is why he received the vision. 99.999% of Christians at that time did not receive such a vision.

Best Regards,

David Mathews