Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David Mathews · 07-24-2002, 11:48 AM

Hello Everyone,

Those atheists who have more questions/comments about the issues brought up in several Existence of God threads are invited to present them here.

I look forward to your questions and will endeavor to answer them to the best of my ability.

Best Regards,

David Mathews
<a href="http://ww.geocities.com/dmathew1" target="_blank">David Mathews' Home Page</a>

MrDarwin · 07-24-2002, 11:54 AM

My <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=45&t=000831" target="_blank">questions for theists</a> weren't about the existence of God, so much as the nature of God, or what Christians believe about the nature of God, but I'll post them here anyway:

Quote:

Do you believe that a merciful god would allow any soul to suffer for eternity, without hope of relief, redemption, or forgiveness?

Do you believe that God will withhold his/her/its love from those who are condemned to hell?

David Mathews · 07-24-2002, 12:44 PM

Hello MrDarwin,

Quote:

Do you believe that a merciful god would allow any soul to suffer for eternity, without hope of relief, redemption, or forgiveness?

David: If there was no potential for humans to suffer eternal punishment God could not act in a merciful manner towards sinful humans. Eternal salvation would then be a given and therefore all human decisions -- good and evil, righteous and blasphemous -- would have no consequence.

Quote:

Do you believe that God will withhold his/her/its love from those who are condemned to hell?

David: I believe that it is possible that God will demonstrate His love even for those who are condemned to hell. As to what form and manner in which God would display love for these people, I can not even speculate.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

Koyaanisqatsi · 07-24-2002, 01:11 PM

In fact, David, you cannot speculate about anything at all, including what ultimate purpose belief or even faith will serve, since by god's grace alone you are saved, correct?

Which means that there is absolutely nothing whastsoever about your beliefs that can ever be said to be knowable or even, dare I say it, believable, right?

Which in turn certainly seems to imply that your beliefs serve no purpose for you on earth, since even if you were to follow every single moral dictate (including the contradictory ones) found in the Bible, as well as ones not explicitly found in the Bible, just in case, you still would have absolutely no guarantee whatsoever that you had lived the life God demanded of you in order to grant you salvation, yes?

Which finally means that you must do nothing else but follow the decrees of your God every single second of your existence and even then pray even harder that your God will take pity on you and grant you salvation--not because of anything you did, but actually, ultimately, in spite of what you didn't do, since that would be the meaning behind God's merciful grace?

So what the f*ck are you doing here?

Quote:

2 Corinthians 6:14-18: Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."
"Therefore come out from them
and be separate, says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you."
"I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."

And while we're at it:

Quote:

Matthew 6:5-6: "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

You heard the man! Beat it and shut the hell up!

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]

WJ · 07-24-2002, 01:17 PM

Koy,

I think he's here to help poor souls like you who keep asking nonsensical questions about something that you admit doesn't even exist. In other words, you're still a confused salesman.

Samhain · 07-24-2002, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WJ:
Koy,

I think he's here to help poor souls like you who keep asking nonsensical questions about something that you admit doesn't even exist. In other words, you're still a confused salesman.

*Sigh*

Tom Sawyer · 07-24-2002, 01:42 PM

OK, here's one:

If God is infinitely powerful, it would cost Him just as much effort to reveal Himself to everybody at every time as it would to reveal Himself to one person at one time. Now the Bible has a few places where He reveals Himself to people (various prophets, St Paul, etc), so if He's going to do that, why not do the same for others? I'm not talking about revealing Himself through the presence of love, or any gushy crap like that, but the whole shining light and big booming voice while you're walking down the road type thing. Why does He think that St Paul was so much better than me that he got a personal visit and I get nothing?

David Mathews · 07-24-2002, 01:43 PM

Hello koy,

Quote:

In fact, David, you cannot speculate about anything at all, including what ultimate purpose belief or even faith will serve, since by god's grace alone you are saved, correct?

David: Yes, I am saved by God's grace.

Quote:

Which means that there is absolutely nothing whastsoever about your beliefs that can ever be said to be knowable or even, dare I say it, believable, right?

David: Could you clarify your question, please?

Quote:

Which in turn certainly seems to imply that your beliefs serve no purpose for you on earth, since even if you were to follow every single moral dictate (including the contradictory ones) found in the Bible, as well as ones not explicitly found in the Bible, just in case, you still would have absolutely no guarantee whatsoever that you had lived the life God demanded of you in order to grant you salvation, yes?

David: Humans sin, Christians sin: I have nothing whatsoever to boast about before God. I would never claim to have lived the life that God demands because such is too great for me.

Quote:

Which finally means that you must do nothing else but follow the decrees of your God every single second of your existence and even then pray even harder that your God will take pity on you and grant you salvation--not because of anything you did, but actually, ultimately, in spite of what you didn't do, since that would be the meaning behind God's merciful grace?

David: I am saved by God's grace. I am preserved by God's grace. Without God's grace I have no hope whatsoever of salvation.

Quote:

So what the f*ck are you doing here?

David: Obviously, I am talking to you.

Love,

David Mathews

MrDarwin · 07-24-2002, 01:53 PM

David, your if-then statement does not make sense:

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
If there was no potential for humans to suffer eternal punishment God could not act in a merciful manner towards sinful humans.

Why not? Why does the punishment have to be eternal? How could a merciful God allow any soul to suffer eternally, with no hope of mercy, with no hope of relief?

If the damned pray to God for forgiveness, or at least to ease their suffering, does God hear these prayers? Are you suggesting that, regardless of whether God continues to love the damned or not, he/she/it would turn his/her/its back on them forever?

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
David: I believe that it is possible that God will demonstrate His love even for those who are condemned to hell. As to what form and manner in which God would display love for these people, I can not even speculate.

And yet many Christians not only speculate, they are quite certain of what happens to the damned, and it isn't pleasant. Are you suggesting you don't believe in Hell, or that you have doubts about whether damnation entails eternal suffering?

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]

Autonemesis · 07-24-2002, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
If there was no potential for humans to suffer eternal punishment God could not act in a merciful manner towards sinful humans. Eternal salvation would then be a given and therefore all human decisions -- good and evil, righteous and blasphemous -- would have no consequence.

Please explain how the consequences of our actions must last for eternity before they mean anything to us in our present, mortal state of existence.

Also, I find this idea, that god created eternal punishment so as to make mercy possible, to be unsatisfying and circular. Can you rephrase it so as not make the Act of Creation sound like the biggest pud-pull of all time?

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: Kind Bud ]

07-24-2002, 11:48 AM	#1
David Mathews Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: st. petersburg Posts: 622	New Existence of God Thread Hello Everyone, Those atheists who have more questions/comments about the issues brought up in several Existence of God threads are invited to present them here. I look forward to your questions and will endeavor to answer them to the best of my ability. Best Regards, David Mathews <a href="http://ww.geocities.com/dmathew1" target="_blank">David Mathews' Home Page</a>

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07-24-2002, 01:17 PM	#5
WJ Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 812	Koy, I think he's here to help poor souls like you who keep asking nonsensical questions about something that you admit doesn't even exist. In other words, you're still a confused salesman.

07-24-2002, 01:42 PM	#7
Tom Sawyer Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Toronto, eh Posts: 42,293	OK, here's one: If God is infinitely powerful, it would cost Him just as much effort to reveal Himself to everybody at every time as it would to reveal Himself to one person at one time. Now the Bible has a few places where He reveals Himself to people (various prophets, St Paul, etc), so if He's going to do that, why not do the same for others? I'm not talking about revealing Himself through the presence of love, or any gushy crap like that, but the whole shining light and big booming voice while you're walking down the road type thing. Why does He think that St Paul was so much better than me that he got a personal visit and I get nothing?

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