leyline

andy

well i am glad we cleared that one up.

leyline

carol

thank you for the compliment

yeh a culture has to be spiritual too. I am not so sure that capitalist democracy is succeeding in that respect, but compared to many other cultures i think it is true that women generally are not so badly treated and things are gradually getting better.

But what of physical beauty? Is it a distraction...... a feminine force, a male demand, spiritual, profane, all of these, whatever?

The feminist's used to have a bit of a problem with it, but if anything men are now being asked to take as much care of their appearances as women. I find it very difficult to place physical beauty in a spiritual context, and yet who would wish it away?

emotional

I don't take too kindly to this. The pressure towards physical appearance has become a new rat race, where everyone is compelled to compete on what is, let's face it, a genetically-determined field. Countless women (and now probably also men) have been driven out of their minds by the inability to match up to the standards of physical beauty.

Even intelligence shouldn't be rewarded, because it's a genetically-determined field too. The only thing that should be cultivated and rewarded is effort.

andy_d

Regarding intelligence, this is not strictly true. Like everything with a biological componant, genes are only one factor.

Intelligence isn't set in stone, and can fluctuate greatly. If not given appropriate stimulation, your brain will not perform well. Even things as simple as getting physically fit can boost mental power by as much as 25%.

Regarding effort, you're 100% correct. Luckily however, this is precisely how the world works. Generally speaking, it is my experience that it doesn't really matter how smart or good looking or priviledged you are. Success depends entirely on motivation and good old fashioned hard work.

leyline

!!

i didn't expect those two opinions.

While i agree that we have become obsessed with physical appearances (due to the modern media) i don't see how beauty is necessarily outside the context of spirituality. It is difficult though.

Maybe beauty is a spiritual challenge to us all. Something not to become too proud or envious of. Neither to be ignored or obsessed with. After all making yourself look smart is Ok. Having said that the wise prophet is often portrayed as a bit of an unshaven straggly haired scruff. But religious places are often highly decorated and designed with great beauty too. Not all spiritual people are puritans.

As for the work ethic and its just rewards. Hmmm... well i am certainly not against 'effort' in whatever form it takes but you guys seem to be expounding a rather..... uh ..... austere approach to our time in this physical realm. And what do you mean by reward and success that should be outside intelligence or beauty? In what way should the intelligent or beautiful person not be spiritually rewarded!

Carol Massey

I think the appreciation of beauty is a collective impulse that we all share. We love things beautiful, we love to create things beautiful, it is a quality of our being. Like all other qualities it may be seen as something 'light' or something 'dark'...this depends on the individual and their unique perception of it.

Example: I think 'nature' is a beautiful tapestry of life, death, and rebirth, and classical music a combination of ascending on high, and descending into the bowels of existence, both plays of light and dark.

The yourg and beautiful woman, and the old hag are one and the same.....

and so it goes..

andy_d

I don't really see any challenge myself. Beauty is perfectly natural.

Spirituality isn't necessarily about denying everything which is pleasurable. IMO, spirituality should increase our pleasure of the world, not decrease it.

emotional

The idea is simple: the beautiful or intelligent person did not work to become beautiful or intelligent - he or she was born that way - so he or she should not be rewarded for a chance factor. It's like being rewarded for pulling a six on a dice.

The greatest spiritual challenge is the inequality of people worldwide. I feel guilty every time I have a good meal or spend a lot of money, knowing there are many who can't, and I wish I were a good moneymaker in order that I could do something to remedy this inequality.

(currently I'm not a moneymaker, I'm a college student)

leyline

hmm..

while i agree that not everything is necessarily placed in the spiritual context i still feel that beauty is too valuable to be ignored when we feel religiously.

I agree there is a sense in which it is natural, but only in the sense that everything is natural. Just as mankind has reached heights of intelligence so it has with art. (I am talking about art that expresses physical beauty, or beauty physically.)

carol wrote

"I think the appreciation of beauty is a collective impulse that we all share. We love things beautiful, we love to create things beautiful, it is a quality of our being. "

i agree with this and i agree with her use of the word 'love'. Love is most definitely not outside the spiritual. As she points out it is creative too, and the creativity of our being is about as spiritual as we can get. It is how we relate to each other, the world around us and what we feel goes beyond that.

Beauty is as mysterious as love, but its much easier to feel that love is spiritual.

"The yourg and beautiful woman, and the old hag are one and the same....."

with all due respect, when it comes to physical beauty they are not.

Carol Massey

I suspect, the perception of beauty then, like all things physical (if we consider them separate and apart from the spiritual), remains in the "I" of the beholder.

-------

To digress for a moment, leyline, and refer to something you said in an earlier post, regarding the lack of spirituality in a material world:

" yeh a culture has to be spiritual too. I am not so sure that capitalist democracy is succeeding in that respect,"

My reply (which I forgot to pen a couple of days back), would be:

So long as we maintain our dualistic thinking that the "spiritual" is some 'good' unknown that we must strive to become, we still perpetuate paradoxical dualism. On the other hand, when we begin to intuit that the world condition is a result of the malpractice of our creative impulse...then we can consciously make choices that are beneficial to our continued evolution as awakened compassionate beings that truly care about our connectedness to this beautiful blue orb and others who populate it.

In this sense: "Dreaming is mandatory....waking up is optional." :notworthy