leyline

hi

i am a stranger to this place and have only wandered in within the last couple of few days.

is there anybody here that has a deep respect for a ‘non abrahamic religion?’ and also physical laws? I don’t mean to necessarily exclude Judaism, Christianity and Islam but I am interested in talking with people who have non dogmatic non creationist ideas and feelings of what it means to be human in this world, and in particular your views about our relationship to the physical universe.

I notice that there are a lot of rationalists and materialists and the like on this forum, (all well and good) but their almost zealous enthusiasm for science means that I can only converse with them on a narrow spectrum, and have to be careful not to be confrontational and defensive.

I see no contradiction in believing in the ‘mystical’ forces for want of a better word, and recognising the wonderful insights of science. Anybody else out there who feels likewise and willing to shake my hand? Do you have a gift for dowsing or healing or whatever?

Personally I relate to astrology ( Piscean) and I have for some years been ‘skirting’ around Buddhism to some extent. I am also into bronze age and neolithic sites in britain. I suppose my only claim for being able to tune in is with respect to recognising serendipity in my life.

good vibes

Waning Moon Conrad

Hello.

I'm with you to some degree at least. I have beliefs not shared by those I would describe as "hardcore sceptics".

I also believe in empirical science. I just don't believe that it has absolutely all of the answers.

I don't go along with the idea that if it cannot be measured it does not and cannot exist.

Maybe karma had a hand in the shaping of species through evolution. Maybe there's no such thing as karma.

Scepticism is good but I don't think it's the be all and end all and I think it has its own fundamentalism or fundamentalists at least.

Volker.Doormann

Hi leyline,

I think, I have done some (re-)search in physics and spirituality, being an astrologer for more than 40 years (pisces ascendent) , never a member of any religion, but have studied the spriritual background of them and the spiritual laws as physicists study the physical laws of nature. I have written here some hundred postings, but I never have met a person here, who was willing to do a dialog in a spiritual respectful manner to the other soul. I do run a German web site doormann.org containing also some pages in English language about »Spiritual sources«. About my work in physics, you can take a look on the page doormann.org/physics.htm .

One of some souls, to which I have a deep soul relationship is the weaver Kabir, who has written wonderful songs like these:

Other souls I have a deep relation to are the professor of theology in Islam: Mevlana Jelalu'ddin Rumi, Lao=Tsu, Jiddu Krishnamurti, Jesus, or Socrates.

Thank you for your posting.

Volker

emotional

The way I see it, science and spirituality/mysticism are opposites and enemies. The more science has investigated in the natural universe, the more it has eaten into belief in any sort of spiritual or mystical substance.

No, I'm not a sceptic, I believe in life after death, souls and soul-worlds (as well as one Creator-God presiding over it all), but I do so not with the aid of science, nor in conjuction with science, but in spite of science. I trust science to tell me about the natural world, but as far as the astral planes are concerned, I trust faith and only faith, and I do not seek scientific evidence for those planes. And if science says there is no life after death, then let science be damned.

As for paranormal gifts, when I was a little child I could, when given any random date, say what day it fell on. I've since lost that gift.

leyline

Hi Waning Moon Conrad, Volker.Doormann, and emotional

thanks for responding.

"I don't go along with the idea that if it cannot be measured it does not and cannot exist. "

yes i really agree there. Being 'measured' also has a spooky feel about it, don't you agree? When we come across fundamentalists who rely totally on measurement it can set up a disturbing distance. I think that that is why spirituality and science are often enemies as emotional points out. Maybe its inevitable to some extent and we should accept that. But science wasn't always like it is now. Sir Isaac Newton was deeply religious and into alchemy and finding hidden messages in the bible.

I also believe that people can change. I know i have. Twenty years ago i would have dismissed many things out of hand that i believe now.

I don't know anything about astral planes emotional. Are they physical realms in any way and how do you tap into them?

Your studies sound well interesting Volker.Doormann and i will have a good read. I am not sure if i will be able to give much back though. More like learning whats what. Thanks for the song too.

I have my own intuitions about astrology though. Personally i don't think of the planets and moons and astronomical cycles as physically writing well behaved messages in the sky for all to see. I think this is also true even of the sun signs. Its like i can see say, the aquarian in someone, but its more about the way they do things as much as what they do (and don't do) and the 'vibe' they give off. Our physical presence isn't just atomic.

I wouldn't waste my time trying to build a machine for detecting it. And as for measuring it by statistical analysis of astrological tests i think that that is to miss the point.

When we are given something about someone it helps us to relate to one another and understand. Science tries to extract information from a context, and reapply it. Some things cannot be extracted from a relationship and measured. Like love. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. What it means is that for us to appreciate these things we have to enter into relationship without the attitude of trying to take something out.......... Like a measurement

emotional

The astral planes are parallel universes existing side by side with the natural universe. They are real, but they can only be perceived spiritually. While you are in your material body, their existence is veiled from you; after you die your spiritual body, the astral body, gets out of your material body and lives in full perception of the astral planes.

My cosmology is a model of concentric spheres. The innermost sphere is the natural universe, where everything operates by rigorous natural law and the existence of the All-Loving, All-Holy Father is hidden. Out of this sphere, and enveloping it, are the astral spheres, where the existence of God is revealed. There is no scientific evidence for the astral planes, nor can there, by definition, ever be, so all I can say to scoffers is, "you'll believe in them when you get there". People who undergo a Near-Death Experience tell of the Loving Light Being. This cannot be but God.

As for tapping the astral planes, certain gifted individuals can do this. They're called mediums.

For more about the astral planes, I recommend William Stainton Moses's Spirit Teachings.

God is the Creator of the universe. He is both immanent and transcendent. Between the Creator and the creation a great gulf is fixed, but He pervades all of the creation. He is the All-Wise, All-Holy Father. He is Love. He saves sinners, cleanses the sins of men. He is the Lord of Life and Death. He is the Light of Love that all who die meet. He is the Reviewer of Life. He is the Lord of Heaven and Hell. He is the All-Merciful. May His blessing shower us all.

leyline

emotional

the astral plane cosmology makes sense enough to me. We are always trying to express and understand these things and it does feel like a veil a lot of the time. If i understand you the innermost sphere operates by rigorous natural laws to the extent that the other dimensions are severly restricted in how they convey to us that the loving creator is there. So the astral body is alive but not free to be fully aware. Any higher awareness therefore will be at odds to the overwhelming laws of physicality that we live in.

Nevertheless surely we must have ways even within this plane that the astral body has some awareness of higher spheres of existence? In essence you would say that they are necessarily unscientific. I agree. I can also understand why you are at odds with science, but do you not appreciate science at all in the spiritual sense? I mean does it not reveal beautiful and strange unities in the natural world that we shouldn't look down upon? That science looked at in the right way does a service in revealing the beauty of god’s creation in the physical sense? Or are you saying that science has taken away an essentially spiritual relationship with the physical world?

I remember seeing a guy on the telly speak touchingly about near death. He came back because he didn’t want to leave his wife feeling alone. However he was still very upset about what he had left behind and had to wait for. This world was just nowhere near as beautiful. Having said that I got the feeling that he was more disappointed by people’s general behaviour and the lack of peace, rather than the physical limitations.

emotional

This life is a time of great opportunity. It is here and now that you prepare yourself, for better or worse, for the afterlife. The rules of matter, the challenges of God's hiddenness, all make the material life an awesome whetstone of the self.



There are ways of leaving the body by willpower, but they require great practice and perseverance: meditation, yoga, musical trance, chanting and other awareness-shifting methods. There are whole religions, such as Hinduism and Wicca, where the practitioner devotes time to attain an altered state of consciousness.



If you look hard enough you will find evidence for the existence of astral planes and astral bodies, but such evidence is not watertight. When I brought some of this evidence before the materialists here on these forums, I met only a condescending wave of ridicule. "Pseudoscience" was the word I saw most. So I decided to rely on faith instead, which cannot be so demolished.



Science is properly neutral. It is the interpretations of such fundamentalist materialists, like Richard Dawkins and William Provine, that make science so hostile to spirituality. For example, William Provine said evolution means there is no life after death. Just so. His logic, I think, is this:

1. Animals have no life after death.
2. Humans are animals (that's what evolution has proved).
3. Humans have no life after death.

#2 and #3 are sound. It's #1 that Provine touts as a sleight of hand. Animals have no life after death? Says who? I believe all conscious animals, including humans (and not including bacteria, for example - they aren't conscious), have life after death. So evolution doesn't mean there's no life after death, unless you've already decided so.

Science has given us some positive spiritual insights. For example, the greatness, vastness of the cosmos, and the interconnectedness of all living species. We are no longer in the prison-cell of a geocentric cosmos, with the stars merely tiny night-lights on the ceiling of the sky. The universe is much vaster than the ancients ever imagined it to be, and consequently, God is much greater than the petty tyrants described in holy scriptures.

As for evolution, there is nothing grander. As Charles Darwin put it:

The ancient separation between mankind and the other animals is seen to be a myth. We are all descended from a common ancestor, effectively we are all one. This is much better than the old "man/animal" dualism that the Abrahamic religions introduced.

Science also points out to the fact of the indifference of the universe. While this is not a comforting fact, it does give us a spiritual opportunity: instead of doing good because God is watching over you and will punish you if you don't do good, then do good because it is good. This is a much more spiritual message than that of the pre-scientific, Abrahamic religions.

Of course it is much easier to behave well when the Light of God shines over you, as it is in the afterlife. That is why life on the material plane is much more of an opportunity, a challenge, than life in the astral planes. We are here for a good reason.

leyline

nice reply emotional

i am off to my favoutite stone circle for the solstice. The landscape there has such a profound effect on many people. I would really like to develope some dowsing skills and i am sure there will be someone there who can give a few tips.

The gathering is very ad hoc and not organised, although unfortunately the police stop all cars getting anywhere near after 10 pm. Sometimes there are thousands, sometimes just a hundred or so. People mostly sit around candles through the nite and chat and hope for a clear sunrise, and there is all sorts of drumming and chanting and rituals and ceremonies here and there in the dark. I love the feel of it.

Take it easy

leyline

I have been thinking about how Neolithic peoples and the like might have related to the physical world and each other.

Suppose they thought that children were created by the wind making females pregnant and they did not know that sex between each other caused birth.

That they did not see the world in terms of one substance and one god. That water was different to air and earth and fire, and that there were many gods and spirits. And maybe the natural forces were spirits too, so that women have a special relationship with the wind.

And the sun was a god, and when they found time through shadows, time was thus a creation of this great god. And lines and curves and measurement with them, so that structures like stone circles, often built with great communal toil, were marriages between earth god and sun god and their appreciation of both.

And significance was more often founded upon emotion and coincidence, rather than reason and prediction. Tradition was based upon the authority of the gods and led to survival of the tribe. So a child born in autumn might be given back and sacrificed in times of poor harvest.

And because children were not born of two people they might be raised by others in the tribe to the natural mother and the non existent father. So a man and a woman became guardians to a god given child to the tribe.

And they did not have writing but a few magical symbols. And song and dance and music, which is so different to text because so many ‘voices’ are speaking harmoniously and at once, can thus reveal understanding through simultaneity. And the self is never divorced from the tribe and the environment and the spirit world. Not even memory or a dream is experienced as personal.

And ceremony and ritual and fun are not separate. To dance wildly can be both.

And maybe death and rotting and decay is seen as consumption by the earth, so burial mounds are built in alignment to the sun lines and the bones burnt in the fire so that the spirit can be returned to the wind for rebirth at another time……

We live in a different world.