Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bible Humper · 10-22-2002, 11:24 AM

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Anyway, this is just another one of those arguments based more on mockery than honesty, so it's hard to take seriously as much as Hump-daddy wants us to.

The deity had the power of flight at his disposal.

The deity did not use this power even though it would be his best means of locomotion.

Why? If this question is such a joke, you should have no problem answering it without contradicting the rest of the tale.

The big problem here is that the apologist cannot retreat to the free-will defense, this is the decisive factor that gives me confidence that this question can't be answered in a way that survives scrutiny.

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We all know that if it was recorded that Jesus flew, then this post would be called "why didn't Jesus have eye lasers? seriously" and Hump wouldn't be convinced any bit more- in fact, I think that if Jesus flew it would make his story too rediculous- of course, as the story originally does go, I know that most of you think it's rediculous, and I guess I did at one time too. Sometimes it still shocks the crap out of me that I'm defending Christ, when I used to be the guy mocking the super christian girl who used to pray for her lunch.

The deity had no need for eye lasers, nor anything else that could only be used as a weapon. Such a question could be dismissed as mockery because there is no reason he would grant himself such a thing.

I have given reasons why the deity should have flown, there have been jokes in the thread but the question is still there.

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Anyway, I guess all i can say is that your gonna see Jesus how you want to, I can't change that. I believe the previously mentioned fig tree, walking on water, and turning water to wine we're not just for Jesus to show off, but i also don't think it's worth arguing that because we could blabber for ever and the fact remains that we just see it differently.

I always notice when people answer challenges in this manner, implying that there is an answer but that they aren't going to reveal it because there is "no use", that when that person gets called on it they never seem to be able to produce that elusive answer.

Prove me wrong. Explain to me why an omnimax deity's avatar would not fly for the sake of locomotion.

The answer to this problem has no relation to our belief, or lack of belief, in an omnimax deity. The exercise can be seen as wholly hypothetical, and the answer is still right or wrong on it's own merits.

Bible Humper · 10-22-2002, 11:26 AM

Thank you for your time Helen, I'll wait for your link before I address the ideas in your post.

Thanks again.

HelenM · 10-22-2002, 12:15 PM

One thing you could look up is 'kenosis'. This is the Greek word from the passage where it says that Jesus being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God, something to be grasped but emptied himself...(Philippians 2)

The word "kenosis" is the Greek for him emptying himself.

Anyway, here's one article with that title that I think is likely to represent mainstream Bible-believing Christianity's view:

<a href="http://www.garagedoor.org/kenosis/" target="_blank">Kenosis</a>

I notice it says in there that what I said [about Jesus doing things by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by his own power] is wrong

. I guess my associate pastor would be pleased!

Apart from that

it could be a good article on the theology of Jesus being God 'in the flesh'. But I'm not sure how close it comes to addressing your questions. Maybe not close enough.

Actually, a lot of the hits for kenosis aren't anything to do with Christian theology. If I find any more links I'll let you know...

take care
Helen

Bible Humper · 10-22-2002, 01:38 PM

Thank you for the link, Helen, but it seems to only strengthen my case!

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Jesus was and is fully God and fully man, one Person with two natures. Just as we rely on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (e.g., Rom. 8:11), of the Father (e.g., Jn. 17:23), and of the Son (e.g., 1 Jn. 3:24) to live the Christian life, so Christ, as man, relied on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, of the Father, and of His own Deity - Himself, to perform the miracles. As God, Christ worked in unison with the Holy Spirit and the Father to perform the miracles.

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As a man, Christ also relied on Himself - His own Deity, to perform miracles without qualifying them as being done by the Holy Spirit or by His Father. A key passage to examine occurs in Mark�s gospel.

"And on that day, when evening had come, He said to them, �Let us go over to the other side.' And leaving the multitude, they took Him along with them, just as He was, in the boat; and other boats were with Him. And there arose a fierce gale of wind, and the waves were breaking over the boat so much that the boat was already filling up. And He Himself was in the stern, asleep on the cushion; and they awoke Him and said to Him, �Teacher, do You not care that we are perishing?� And being aroused, He rebuked the wind and said to the sea, �Hush, be still.� And the wind died down and it became perfectly calm. And He said to them, �Why are you so timid? How is it that you have no faith?� And they became very much afraid and said to one another, �Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?�" (NAS Mk. 4:35-41)

It is important to note here is that Christ did not correct His disciples and tell them that it was not He who had saved their lives, but that He had performed this miracle by the power of the Holy Spirit. The disciples were correct in affirming that the wind and waved had obeyed Him � Jesus!

The clearest proof that Christ drew from His own deity to perform miracles is in the resurrection of His own body, when he was physically dead and totally unable to rely on the Holy Spirit. After casting the moneychangers out of the temple, the Jews asked for a sign, to which Christ responded: "�Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.� The Jews therefore said, �It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?� But He was speaking of the temple of His body. When therefore He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture, and the word which Jesus had spoken." (NAS Jn. 2:19-22).

The conclusion seems to be a somewhat convulted situation where Jesus is at the same time...

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The Old Testament prophets foresaw not only a Spirit-anointed human Messiah (Is. 61:1-2), but also the coming of very Yahweh Himself.28 For example, we have already shown that the very Christ Who walked on the earth (Jn. 12:41) was the very Yaweh Isaiah saw (Is. 6:1-5).

...and was indeed still the deity during his ministry....

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The reality is that Christ's glory is multi-dimensional, and being God He reveals it when, where and how He chooses. During His life on earth the angels never ceased beholding His glory, the heavens never stopped declaring His glory, nor was the earth ever any less full of His glory.

...but yet....

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(1) Before creation, whenever Christ looked at Himself, He saw unveiled glory and majesty. Now, as He is praying in John 17, when he looks at Himself He sees hands of human flesh, veiling His glory. He is looking forward to the day His glory would have the same radiance that blazed before creation.

....though the important thing is that....

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In order for the God the Son to abandon His sovereignty in any way, He would have to change His character or being. This, God would never do. "IAM WHO I AM" (NAS Ex. 3:14). "But Thou art the same, And Thy years will not come to an end." (NAS Ps. 102:27). "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever."

...especially....

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The redemption of all creation (Rom. 8:18-22) and of everyone who would ever believe in Christ required not only a perfect human being, but also a sacrifice that was also infinite in every way. It required the "blood of God" (Acts 20:28). "It was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross" (NAS Col. 1:19-20).

Though this issue is somewhat controversial, the alternate interpretations seem to be even worse. The main problem being, of course, that Jesus had the power of God at his command, allegedly desired to use it for good(performed healings), but didn't bother.

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1. "Christ had a human soul, to which the Logos imparted his divinity, little by little until he became completely divine" (Dorner).
2. Christ "laid aside his deity which was then restored at the ascension" (Gess and Beecher).
3. He "abandoned certain prerogatives of the divine mode of existence in order to assume the human," e.g., omniscience" (Gore).
4. "He surrendered the external, physical attributes of omniscience, though retaining the attributes of love and truth (A. M. Fairbairn). This was also held by Thomasius, Deilitzsch, and H. Crosby."
5. Christ "lived a double life from two, non-communicating life centers. As God, he continued his Trinitarian and providential existence, and as man he was united with a human nature. He did not know consciously anything of his divine, Trinitarian existence" (Martensen).
6. "He disguised his deity and attributes, not by giving them up, but by limiting them to a time-form appropriate to a human mode of existence ... His attributes could only be expressed in relation to the (human) time and space that his human form could experience" (Ebrard).
7. "He gave up the use of the attributes (cf. Carson, FD&FPJ, 35)."
8. "He gave up the independent exercise of the divine attributes (Strong, ST, 703)."
9. "He limited himself to the voluntary non-use of the attributes (Walvoord)." 12

HelenM · 10-22-2002, 01:51 PM

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Originally posted by Bible Humper:
Thank you for the link, Helen, but it seems to only strengthen my case!

D'OH!!!

Maybe even if I find any more links I shouldn't pass them along, then...

Bible Humper · 10-22-2002, 02:28 PM

I don't mind, give em to me!

agapeo · 10-23-2002, 03:58 AM

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For those who don't believe in the divinity of Jesus, here's a question for you.

Well, I guess that leaves me out.

Besides you asked more than one and I couldn't decide which one to answer.

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Miraculous manifestations of the power of Jesus were, without the slightest doubt, considered so incredibly important that there is no way in hell they would leave them out.

But how do you know they didn't leave a lot out? The verse I quoted indicates they did, so it seems that there must be a reason why the ones that are recorded arerecorded. IMO anyways.

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The ability of Jesus to live without air, food and water would have cost them a single line, a simple observation that the son of the deity can feed himself on faith and love alone or some such thing.

You mean to say "wouldn't cost them"? In any case you should read Matt 4. It seems clear to me that Jesus needed food.

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Why did Jesus walk on water?

Maybe he didn't know how to swim.

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Why did they "waste" so much ink to bother recording such a trifle?

Well it did kinda freak them out when they saw him walking on the water so . . . that to me makes for a good candidate to include. Besides I'm not sure they used ink back in those days so where's the waste?

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I find it strange, though, that the christian stories of Jesus don't come under this same basic scrutiny.
That depends on what Christians you ask. Although I would tend to agree (from my experience) that there are a lot of Christians that don't. But so what.

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"So what?" you ask! Incredible!

No, I didn't ask. That was a statement, not a question.

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Are you aware that one of the objections of the early critics of christianity was that Jesus was "just another magnus(sorcerer)"? It seems that there were many men in those days capable of these sorts of feats, so it behooves us to assure ourselves that we aren't mistaken regarding Jesus.

Yea but how many raised someone from the dead?

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You can imagine my shock when I realised that the Jesus accounts aren't consistent with this deity's potential and desires!!!

Actually I can't. Were you a Christian at one time?

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Now this I have a problem with. Where do you get off thinking that that is your obligation?
You mean to say that if you discovered that had you based your life on a lie, that you wouldn't be grateful for it being pointed out to you?

For sure. But that wasn't the point of my question.

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I agree but then again when many of the minor details do seem to make sense upon looking at the overall "scope" of things one can say: "Oh well, I may not understand that, but I understand this and that is sufficient."
You have come so close with this sentence to describing how people can believe in anything!

Perhaps. But isn't it true that we all live with so much uncertainty? We are able to manage nevertheless. You live with yours and I live with mine. Where's the beef?

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"Looking at the overall scope of things" is basically reminding one's self that you have presupposed God, so there MUST be an answer if only you were wise enough to see it!

I'm a realist. I recognize that I don't know everything or understand a lot of things but I've learned to live with that. It's no big deal to do so.

Bible Humper · 10-23-2002, 09:32 AM

Hello Agapeo!

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But how do you know they didn't leave a lot out? The verse I quoted indicates they did, so it seems that there must be a reason why the ones that are recorded are recorded. IMO anyways.

Well, I find that excuse very unconvincing!

You would have to be already convinced that Jesus genuinely was the incarnate Yahweh, before even looking at the problem, to believe that all the details that would be needed to make the account plausible actually happened but were "just left out".

There is no way the writer would not bother with details which make it clear that this man is no mortal being, considering the importance of this point to the religion's theology.

It also doesn't explain why he didn't fly!

The verse you mentioned, Matt. 21:25, seems to be nothing more than a sweeping statement which made it possible for the early christians to believe their own pet miracle story, even if it didn't become canon.

The verse seems to have been written because there was a lot of controversy over what stories would be kept, it appears to be nothing more than a concession to everyone who wanted their story included by the men who decided what they were all going to believe.

It seems to be the best way to retain the loyalty of everyone who didn't get to add the story of their great-great-grandfather's encounter with the messiah to the bible.

Incredulous Peasant Pete: "My great, great, grand-daddy was thar when Jeezus turned a pot 'a water into the finest wine ya evar saw!"

Gullible villager Bob: "Pfft! My great great grand-daddy saw Him come up to the shore, give the water a look, en then that thar water let 'im walk on it like it were solid stone!"

Simple pieman Simon: "Bah! My great great grand-daddy wuz afloatin' in a boat wit 'im in the sea, that thar sea was risin' up like it were gonna swallow the worl'! But my great great grand-daddy saw Jesus turn to that thar water an' give it a look that made it calm down just as quick as you please!"

Bob and Pete: "Whoah!"

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You mean to say "wouldn't cost them"? In any case you should read Matt 4. It seems clear to me that Jesus needed food.

How could a deity "need food"? Either he wasn't a divine being, or the deity was putting on a show.

If you are thinking that you could explain this by saying that Jesus was limited in some ways in order to "be human", I strongly suggest you follow Helen's link to see why this idea isn't theologically sound.

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Well it did kinda freak them out when they saw him walking on the water so . . . that to me makes for a good candidate to include.

I addressed this above, you have to already be convinced that "there must some sort of explanation" to find it believable that everything you would expect the omnimax deity to do while he was on Earth was indeed done, but just "wasn't mentioned".

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Yea but how many raised someone from the dead?

A lot of them! Even in christian theology this isn't very remarkable, it seems that it used to be common for men who were saint material to raise the dead, not very remarkable at all!

St. Nicholas is just one of many, being credited with the ability to raise children from the grave! I suspect that the story comes from his followers catching the old saint in the nude, behind the lad, and "performing the Heimlich maneuver"

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You can imagine my shock when I realised that the Jesus accounts aren't consistent with this deity's potential and desires!!!

Actually I can't. Were you a Christian at one time?

I've done a great job by refraining from asking about x-ray vision, I think I deserved to indulge here! No, I was never a christian, so the fact that the Jesus accounts are remarkable for being an obviously totally unrealistic portrayal of an omnimax deity on Earth was not "shocking"

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Perhaps. But isn't it true that we all live with so much uncertainty? We are able to manage nevertheless. You live with yours and I live with mine. Where's the beef?

Well, if this is your opinion it seems strange that you frequent this board! Should I just ignore the fact that these people believe in something that didn't happen, just because it gives them a false certainty?

I assume that christians who visit this board value the truth enough that they are willing to see the other side of the argument, I doubt that they would be grateful if I treated them like children who need a pretty lie because they "can't handle" an ugly truth!

[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Bible Humper ]

Eudaimonist · 10-23-2002, 09:57 AM

Why did Jesus walk on water?

Maybe he didn't know how to swim.

LOL! That was funny.

HelenM · 10-23-2002, 10:01 AM

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Originally posted by Bible Humper:
How could a deity "need food"? Either he wasn't a divine being, or the deity was putting on a show.

I think you're missing that Jesus was fully man. Humans need to eat.

God becoming man as Jesus is referred to as 'the Incarnation'. Here is a page with several related links.

<a href="http://www.e-grace.net/incarnat.html" target="_blank">The Incarnation Of Christ</a>

take care
Helen

[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]

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10-22-2002, 11:26 AM	#22
Bible Humper Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,125	Thank you for your time Helen, I'll wait for your link before I address the ideas in your post. Thanks again.

10-22-2002, 12:15 PM	#23
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	One thing you could look up is 'kenosis'. This is the Greek word from the passage where it says that Jesus being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God, something to be grasped but emptied himself...(Philippians 2) The word "kenosis" is the Greek for him emptying himself. Anyway, here's one article with that title that I think is likely to represent mainstream Bible-believing Christianity's view: <a href="http://www.garagedoor.org/kenosis/" target="_blank">Kenosis</a> I notice it says in there that what I said [about Jesus doing things by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by his own power] is wrong . I guess my associate pastor would be pleased! Apart from that it could be a good article on the theology of Jesus being God 'in the flesh'. But I'm not sure how close it comes to addressing your questions. Maybe not close enough. Actually, a lot of the hits for kenosis aren't anything to do with Christian theology. If I find any more links I'll let you know... take care Helen

10-22-2002, 02:28 PM	#26
Bible Humper Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,125	I don't mind, give em to me!

10-23-2002, 09:57 AM	#29
Eudaimonist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Sundsvall, Sweden Posts: 3,159	Why did Jesus walk on water? Maybe he didn't know how to swim. LOL! That was funny.

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