Mageth

Of course he does, but atheists are so bent on disproving God and denying him, that you hardened your heart to God.

I, like many other here, started out as a theist. I was intent on proving god. Nevertheless, in the long run I realized that the evidence simply didn't support the conclusion, so now I lack belief in god. I'm not "bent on disproving god", nor do I "deny" god (I merely lack belief).

Even now, however, my life would be much easier if I could believe (my family, including my wife, my parents and most of my siblings are believers, and my lack of belief makes life with them rather difficult).

My heart is not "hardened". I'm not actively trying not to believe. In the first place, this all goes on in my brain, not my heart. In the second place, I'd believe if there was reason to do so.

Which, for now, there is not. I value my intellectual integrity too much to believe without reason, to live a lie, even though doing so would make my life easier. In other words, I'm incapable of making myself believe.

He knows that you will never unharden it so he lets it get more hardened.

Actually, the bible says god hardens our hearts (see Romans 9:18, for exampe). Odd, if god is able to muck around with our "free will" in order to harden our hearts, why could he not "soften" them instead?

Just like what happened the pharoah. God is not to be tested. He gave you the Bible and the world around you, if you don't accept his evidence as enough or even open your mind to him being real, then you're outta luck.

The bible says god hardened Pharaoh's heart.

I tried the "open mind" bit for 45 years. As I said above, I'm incapable of making myself believe. And if I don't believe in god, why would I believe the bible? (this leads into the circular bible->god->bible reasoning, btw).

According to the Bible there are no aliens.

Bad logic on your part. The bible does not say "there are no aliens."

God created Earth humans and only Earth humans, at least as far as we know.

That's right, as far as we know. The bible makes no positive statement that god didn't create life on other planets.

Do you not understand what sin is yet? Sin is going against what is "good" to God. He can't let you do whatever the heck you want because it violates his nature. If you commit a sin, you violate the perfect universe he created and since he is the epitome of perfection and righteousness, by his own nature that has existed for eternity, he has to punish you. To not punish you would go against his nature and make him unrighteous, if he is unrighteous, he isn't God. We've been through this crap countless times, apparently you are never gonna grasp the concept.

I "grasp" the concepts, probably better than you do, actually. It's just that the concepts, at their root, makes no sense. "This crap" is an apt description, thanks!

If Adam and Eve, obeyed God and never chose to use their free will to committ disobedience, sin wouldn't exist. God did not create them to sin, He only created the ability for them to sin.

But, Magus, A&E allegedly had no concept of good and evil before they at the fruit, so how could they sin? Can a dog, with no knowledge of good and evil, sin?

If you build a nuclear rocket that is going to be put on a spaceship to take you to another planet, and someone steals that rocket and turns it in to a nuclear bomb to kill humans, are you responsible for the death of those people? No, you didn't kill them, you only created the rocket which had the chance of being misused. Doesn't mean you created it to be a nuclear bomb.

Bad analogy. If god "created the ability for them to sin", he created the bomb which they later triggered, did he not?

EggplantTrent

I've already said somehwere that if God was to give me some kind of supernatural sign, or if someone came down and started walking on water, I would believe... and my heart would be "unhardened".

I do not conclusively rule out the possibility of a God (or specifically the Christian God). It's just that I have not seen enough or compelling evidence that he exists, therefore he is irrelevant to me. If I saw evidence then I would absolutely believe.

When I'm talking about evidence, I don't need anything really spectacular. I just want to see stuff he used to do in the bible, like talking animals, water into blood, straw into gold etc. Or maybe if I prayed for a burrito and all of a sudden it appears on my desk. I mean, he is an omnipotent being. He can do whatever the hell he wants, why doesn't he do this? I thought he loved me? Why doesn't he show me things to "unharden" my heart?

...Because God will fail all the tests you give him.

My God is the one true God. He assumes the form of a talking garden gnome and he lives in my dorm room. He is all powerful etc etc.

...what? You can't see him? Why doesn't he give you proof? Well, you see, the Garden Gnome God is not to be tested. He hates that crap. The fact that the universe exists is proof that the Garden Gnome God is the one true God. Oh yeah, and he only shows himself to the faithful. Sorry, your heart is hardened. Looks like you'll be burning in hell.

Also, existence itself is not evidence, unless I start seeing "made by God" engraved like on an asteroid or something. That's like saying "the sky is blue, my beer is cold, the moutains are beautiful, therefore my God, the elusvie purple and black space God, exists." Also, a contradictory compilation of books and circular arguments about the existence of your God won't cut it either. If your God exists, then why doesn't he make logical sense?

You are saying this proving God exists through the bible, and to a lesser extent, that the bible is true because of God.

Bible --> God --> Bible --> God... ad infinitum.

This is not very compelling.

Ok. So all people are in hell that existed prior to the creation of the bible, written language, and the formation of judaism and christianity? That seems kind of unfair.

Also, please cite the scripture passage that says "I am the One who is called I Am. There are no such things as space aliens. What a silly concept you silly silly humans. That will be all. Carry on."

But he's all powerful. Why would he let anything violate his nature? What is his nature anyway? Please define, because it seems to me, an awful lot of stuff he does in the bible violates his own "righteous" nature.

Mageth

Offering money is something the faithful do out of thanks. It may seem like a command, but to the faithful they willingly and happily wish to please God.

Oh, really? First, remember this NT passage:

Matthew 5:17-19: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Then look at the OT:

Leviticus 27:30 "And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD."

Numbers 18:25-31 - "The Lord said to Moses, “Speak to the Levites and say to them: ‘When you receive from the Israelites the tithe I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe as the Lord’s offering…to Aaron the priest…’”"

Malachi 3:8 and 10 "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation....Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."

And the story of Ananias and Sapphira makes it further evident that there is a certain threat behind the "willingly and happily" bit.

xian

well since for the sake of argument, you are granting the premise that God exists, then its pretty obvious He owns everything.

EggplantTrent

Which means that he owns people as well. The fact that people are growing tomatoes somewhere, or earning some money shouldn't really bother him because he owns it all anyway, including the people that work for it.

EggplantTrent

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Mageth,
This friend, is the problem. Perhaps your intent should have been on knowing God.




It's not knowledge of the king that saves one from the gallows pole...it's the relationship with him.



Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Magus55

You're right, they didn't grasp the difference between good and evil, but they did grasp the difference between obeying God and disobeying. God told them they could have dominion over everything in the Garden, it was all theirs, but the only commandment they had to follow was to not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. They broke that commandment and sin entered the world.

No, in the analogy - you created the rocket to be used for powering a ship, not to be turned into a bomb. You only created something that could be used to turn into a bomb if misused. Since you didn't create it to be a bomb, nor did you detonate it - you aren't responsible.

Another analogy. Gun maker makes handguns for shooting at a firing range. Some guy buys it, shoots someone on the street and kills them. Why don't the courts hold the gun manufacturing criminally liable for killing that person?

Mageth

This friend, is the problem. Perhaps your intent should have been on knowing God.

Don't make too much out of my choice of words, which were a response intended to echo the "disproving god" bit. It indeed was my intent to "know" god.

Mageth

You're right, they didn't grasp the difference between good and evil, but they did grasp the difference between obeying God and disobeying.

Are you saying "obeying and disobeying god" is not a good/evil choice? You've lost me there.

God told them they could have dominion over everything in the Garden, it was all theirs, but the only commandment they had to follow was to not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. They broke that commandment and sin entered the world.

IMO, sin entered the world because god set it up that way - by placing the "bomb" in the garden and trusting/commanding creatures he created without knowledge of good and evil not to blow it up. If god didn't want them to sin, why place the tree there in the first place?

No, in the analogy - you created the rocket to be used for powering a ship, not to be turned into a bomb. You only created something that could be used to turn into a bomb if misused. Since you didn't create it to be a bomb, nor did you detonate it - you aren't responsible.

My criticism of the analogy stands. God created the "bomb", and told them not to pull the trigger. A&E didn't do anything to turn the tree into the "bomb". Even granting your analogy, why would god put anything in the garden that he knew the two innocents were capable of turning into a "bomb"?

Another analogy. Gun maker makes handguns for shooting at a firing range. Some guy buys it, shoots someone on the street and kills them. Why don't the courts hold the gun manufacturing criminally liable for killing that person?

Another bad analogy. Better analogy: someone makes a gun, takes it home, loads it, and places it on the coffee table, then tells his two toddlers not to play with it and leaves the room. Of course, the toddlers pick up the gun and take it outside to play, and end up killing someone with it. Now who's held responsible for the death of that person?

JCS

I am not bent on disproving the existence of an assertion for which there is no evidence. Further more without evidence there is no need to deny or petrify my heart muscle.

ROTFLMAO!!!:notworthy

Are you showing a glimmer of possible doubt/hope?

Unsubstanciated assertion. Demonstrate this god claim then we can move on to what it thinks goes against his whatever.

Define perfect. Does perfection require sin in order to be perfect? If this sin is not a part of perfection than the ability to make a perfect universe by the entity you have described is highly unlikely, since it made imperfection more than a possibility, it became a reality.




Well then that shoots your perfection scenario all to hell then doesn't it. This mythological being according to your construct created a situation for which imperfection not only was possible but eventual. This perfect being you refer too has an imperfection in the fact that it didn't/couldn't foresee the likelihood or ramifications of the scenario it constructed. Would you give a loaded gun to a child that has no comprehension of the possible consequences. Since the A&E characters could not know what good or evil was until they pulled the metaphorical trigger, the oversee'er is the responsible party, thus the cause of any imperfections. Also, how can you be so sure that any ensuing humans would not cause sin. If you're hanging your hat completely on A&E then they are solely to blame and no one else so this inherited sin you ascribe to is null & void.


Another unsupported assertion. You see you have given me nothing to deny or disprove, that is why rejection and hardening of the arteries is unnecessary. If I am going to arbitrarily accept your religious claims than I would have no choice but to accept all religious claims. The contradictory claims of each deity belief result in either choosing one or none, and since all are unsupported at this juncture, none is the honest obvious choice at this time.