HelenM

But what do you base that on, Goliath?

And weren't you the one who said 'typical' means nothing, anyway? So all that matters is what the particular pastor x-xian is seeing with his wife, will say. Not what you or I believe most Christians would say.

Nevertheless, you haven't given any reasons for your beliefs about the futility - or even harm you anticipate this visit to the pastor will do to x-xian's marriage.

And I've given reasons for what I said. Unlike you (if I'm understanding you right), I don't see why a pastor wouldn't confront a Christian wife that he believed is sinning. And I don't understand how he could listen to a Christian wife say "I want to leave my husband just because he doesn't believe" and not conclude she's wanting to go against what the Bible says i.e. she's sinning.

I think if a Christian wife posted on the BB that she wants to leave her atheist husband, the respondents there would tell her the same thing as agapeo - only in different words, of course.

Maybe I'll ask, but I'll have to ask it on a non-Baptist-only board.

Is it unreasonable for me to ask if you have a basis for what you say, since you are saying it very strongly? Maybe it would be helpful to x-xian to say why you believe as you do, because if you have a good reason he might even cancel the appointment. I hope not because I think it could be helpful and doubt it will be harmful. But of course it's up to him.

Helen

pescifish

agapeo and Goliath,
Please do not engage in debate over each other's opinions in this thread. Also, agapeo's use of a derogatory term as if it had been said by others here (though it had not been) was inapporpriate as was Goliath's perpetuation of it's use. It is not for debate about generalizations about Christians or debate challenges.

HelenM, I don't know why you felt the need to get in the middle of this one, but since you did, I will remind you as well.

Reasonable or not, please take these challenges off this forum. If x-xian wants clarification of anyone's position he can ask on this thread or in private.

pescifish,
moderator SL&S

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: pescifish ]</p>

agapeo

I extend my apologies.

Vicar Philip

I'm in a really foul mood right now.

We had a 3-hour BULLSHIT session earlier today. She's been working two jobs, to help catch up our bills, so we don't see each other very often. She was off this morning, so we had some much-needed together time.

A little later, out of the blue, she comes off with her fucking "blah blah blah when I leave you." That pissed me off. So we launched into a three-hour debate. At one point she actually admitted that if one item in her precious fucking BIBLE was wrong, then the whole thing was wrong. She soon regretted saying that. Then, she started taking potshots at evolution. I defended it as best as I could, and realized I need to bone up on it a bit more.

Anyway, this whole ridiculous argument culminated in her telling me that the only thing stopping her from leaving is our piss-poor financial situation. Great. The only thing between me and the loss of my family is a wad of bills. Isn't that fucking nice.

Please, please, please tell me if I am being unreasonable in expecting her to tolerate my non-belief. Helen, you're a theist. How would you react? Amie? She asked me herself, what is she supposed to do? The best I can come up with is "Let's just not talk about it." I can't stress enough that I am NOT telling her how I want her to believe; or is expecting her to accept my non-belief simply a variation of the same?

You guys are really the only ones I can take my problems to. My wife has tons of religious friends, who of course ultimately will take her side. I'm not sure how my mom really feels. She doesn't want to see our family torn apart, well shit, neither do I!!

Granted, I'm asking people who think like I do, but do you all think I am guilty of the pot calling the kettle black? meaning: I complain that she insists I believe like she says, or else, while I implicitly expect her to accept my beliefs?

Religion is a bunch of shit.

HelenM

Darren, all I can say is, I don't understand why all her friends are supporting her in what seems very selfish and immature behavior, to me.

I wish she would have been at my church today because the sermon was about overcoming discontentment and one thing our pastor said was "Don't think that all your problems will be solved if you get married, or divorced". I.e. changing our circumstances wouldn't necessarily fix everything. It's hard for me to understand what she thinks could get better if she left you. I think cricket shows a lot more self-awareness in her (?) post when she (?) says that she's annoyed by Christians but she recognizes that as her problem. I think your wife's problems are in her head. She must spend a lot of time telling herself how awful it is to be married to an atheist rather than getting on with it and finding out it's not so awful after all.

So, no, I don't think she's being at all reasonable in being so intolerant of your non-belief .

By the way, I did post about your situation on the Baptist Board <a href="http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=001128" target="_blank">here</a>. I hope you don't mind and I hope I didn't misrepresent you.

It seems that your wife gets in moods but they do pass. Nevertheless, it doesn't seem fair that you should have to put up with her moods and deal with her saying all kinds of very hurtful things. I can see why you'd be angry about that These are the sorts of things I'd hope you might be able to address if you go to someone to talk about your marriage. An impartial counselor or other skilled person hopefully could help you have more positive, helpful, interactions with one another. When I went with my husband [to the good one, not the useless one] our first assignment was that we had to say two nice things to each other every day, as best I recall.

I don't know what to say except to encourage you not to give up on the idea of the two of you going to see someone, whether that person is a pastor or a professional counselor. I would imagine it would be very reassuring for you to have someone agree with you, for a change! I know you said you have an appointment with the pastor. But you could also be finding out about local professional counselors, perhaps. If your wife is open to that too.

take care
Helen

Vicar Philip

Helen,

I failed to mention earlier that the pastor had other obligations on the 16th, and can't see us then. Another little tidbit that came out of our "conversation" today was that my goal in us going to the pastor was to make her realize that leaving me will solve nothing, and, of course, her goal was to make me "come back to Jebus." I should have known.

This made her very upset, as you might guess. I've told her over and over that I can't change the way my brain thinks. She finally admitted that I had never, indeed, told her that I believed in Creation. We went round and round about Evolution, and she couldn't believe that I've always believed it. We just never discussed it, because I knew how she felt about it. So now I'm the bad guy because I've "suddenly changed." Couldn't be further from the truth.

The bottom line here is she is hellbent on imposing her will on me, that "I believe in God." Despite all the objections and questions I've presented to her, none of it matters. Equally, she tells me that I must not care too much about my family, since I won't change my mind. It's the good old circular argument Christians are so adept at spinning. I can't change my mind unless I get adequate answers to my questions.

Yes, I know, theists often say that no evidence is ever enough for an atheist. That may be true of some of us. For me, however, the world makes a lot more sense without a belief in some mysterious power up there somewhere. My wife just prays harder when she doesn't understand. I don't know why she thinks it would be so easy for me to go against my newly expressed beliefs just like that.

Atheism just makes so damn much common sense!

Helen, why do you believe in god? Your posts seem to contain so much common sense (to me, anyway), I'm curious why you continue to believe in the Big Sky Daddy.

But seriously, thank you for your advice and kind words.

Darren

pescifish

This part would probably be better handled off this thread; either privately or perhaps in General Religious Discussions if you want other theists to answer.

pescifish, moderator

pescifish

I'm very sorry to hear that this meeting you had counted on is not going to happen. If her thoughts are so close to the concept of splitting up, is she even willing to consider couples counseling, from any source? I hope she is!

I suppose one of your options is the same as what is often suggested to the kids who are living with their parents who object to their beliefs: you could choose to live a lie. I hate to think any spouse would actually prefer that, but then again I can't even imagine expecting someone to adjust his/her beliefs for me.

I am so sorry to hear of this latest blowup.

muon

Good grief, Darren. I must admit that I wonder that *you're* not clamoring for a divorce! If my wife ever acted that way towards me, I'd seriously reconsider our future together.

If I were you, I'd *insist* on a professional, non-sectarian counsellor (regardless of whether you also see that pastor or not). I'd also see a lawyer. Your wife has as much as told you that she's going to divorce you. Don't take that to be an idle threat. You need to protect yourself and your kids, before you come home some day and find the house empty, the kids gone, and the bank account sucked to zero. I'm not saying that you should file for divorce, only that you may rapidly find one thrust upon you.

I'm so sorry.

captainpabst

Well, keep in mind that, like before, this statement was made after 3 hours of arguing. She might not have said this otherwise. Whether she means it or not...who knows.

X-xian, if I was in your situation and I felt there was good chance of my wife leaving me over this issue, I would have to weigh my intellectual honesty vs. my family...and I think my family would win.

Perhaps you could try to find some common ground in the bible. I'm not advocating trying to brainwash yourself into becoming a xian again, but there are parts of the bible I, as a non-believer, actually like - 1 Corinthians 13, for example, or the entire book of Ecclesiastes. Song of Solomon is very poetic. Perhaps you could investigate the 'mystical' viewpoint, learn how to relate to xianity in a different way other than dogmatically, and then maybe you could speak what you consider to be a spiritual truth or insight in a manner your wife could interpret in her xian framework. <a href="http://www.dioceseofnewark.org/jsspong/" target="_blank">John Spong</a>'s <a href="http://www.dioceseofnewark.org/voxspong.html" target="_blank">writings</a> could be a place to start. <a href="http://www.jcf.org/about_jc.php" target="_blank">Joseph</a> <a href="http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC12/Campbell.htm" target="_blank">Campbell</a> may interest you, as well as <a href="http://www.kfa.org/teachings.htm" target="_blank">Jiddu</a> <a href="http://www.jiddukrishnamurti.info/" target="_blank">Krishnamurti</a>. Maybe you could seek out a <a href="http://www.uua.org/main.html" target="_blank">Unitarian</a> church in your area, or if it comes down to it, you could simply attend church and deal with it like so many people do...

The only other thing I can advise, and it has been advised in this thread several times before - far more eloquently than I can put it, is to reach out to your wife as lovingly as you can as much as possible. It may be difficult, but if she can see that you care, that you love her and the kids, maybe she'll soften. Maybe you can re-capture the feeling of when you first got together with her - that's great advice for anyone's marriage, I suspect! Be judicious in your religious statements/references, and liberal in your warmth and tenderness. It's not over 'till it's over, and if nothing else, you'll feel better if you can say to yourself, "I did/tried everything I could think to do."