Geoff Hudson

Last year I attended a conference at St. Andrews University on the Dead Sea Scrolls, Afterwards,and quite casually, I asked the conference organiser Dr James Davila, a lecturer in early Jewish studies, if he could tell me when John the Baptist died. Expecting a quick off-the-cuff answer, I was surprised when he said that he would have to consult his books first.

By sharp contrast with this cautious response, the queen of Yahoo’s Qumran Origins, Barbie Thiering, on gazing into her pesher crystal ball, has John dying on Friday September 21 CE 31 at four-o-clock in the morning (Page 226 of Jesus the Man). Pretty clever stuff, hey what, for an ozzie!

Since last year, I have been thinking that the answer to the questions WHEN, HOW and WHY John died are important keys to NT history.

Geoff

offa

Offa,
Geoff Hudson wrote,
Qumran Origins, Barbie Thiering, on gazing into her
pesher crystal ball, has John dying on Friday September 21 CE
31 at four-o-clock in the morning (Page 226 of Jesus the Man).
Pretty clever stuff, hey what, for an ozzie!

Offa,

On page 306, Jesus the Man I find

Fri Sep 21 at 4 a.m. H
The headdress worn by the Baptist as Zadokite high priest
(Ezek 44:18) is brought in. The Baptist is imprisoned at Macherus
and subsequently put to death (Ant. 18:119).
euthys (Mk 6:27) 4 a.m.

Let's go to Ant. 18:119

ANT 18-119

Accordingly, he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious
temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there
put to death. Now the Jews had the opinion that the destruction of
his army was sent as a punishment upon Herod, and a mark of God's
displeasure with him.

Let's go to Mk 6:27

MAR 06:27 And immediately the king sent an executioner,
and commanded his head to be brought: and he went and beheaded
him in the prison,

Offa, "Thiering keeps a chronology with dates and specific times,
when I investigate the dates (specific year) her chronology works
out, I do not know how she derives the hours, however, she did
teach me that cockcrowing is a human timekeeper
shouting the hour". PLease note that John's beheading was the
removal of his headdress and not the grotesque decapitation
from his neck up.

Thanks, Offa

Amos

And here is my take on John the baptist.

John the Baptist was born from the netherworld of Joseph and the netherworld is the subconscious mind of Joseph, as you may recall. John was born from parents of old indicates that it was a deep seated influence (not just desire) of Judaism that this event would happen to Joseph who was therefore an "upright" Jew. Later it was told of him that he "looked expectantly for the reign of God" (Lk.50-53) and laid Jesus in the tomb he had carved with his own hands as if out of rock Mt.27.57-60. Same Joseph, just presented different to lead the reader into the path of religion.

John represents the involutional portion of Joseph's melancholy that is required prior to rebirth. It points towards an inner determination to get to the bottom of "who am I." This just means that his rebirth was not spurred by a moment of instability, age of consent, or any other carnal desire like that and is why John prepared the way for Jesus and made the road of renewal easier to travel. To bring this closer to home, John's preparation eliminates the high/low mood swings of modern day charismatics, as well as the rebel/repent swings suffered by the children of Israel . . . which is why they failed to mature and remained children of Isreal and died as children of God.

John was beheaded indicates that John was silenced to set Jesus free to work out his own salvation because reason must prevail. John was bosum buddy of Jesus, both born in the mind of Joseph with the only difference that Jesus was Judaism from this generation and John was from the previous generation. This becomes clear with "John there is your mother and mother there is your son" at the foot of the cross (see "The Crucifixion with Mary and St. John" by Masaccio also in the Sistine Chapel).

Boro Nut

I've always followed the theory that he topped himself as a result of his paranoia. Even at the height of his popularity the bible is quite clear that he seemed convinced that someone bigger than him was eventually going to come after him.

Boro Nut

gwh00

Offa,

Do you have any other sources that support this
statement;

I am of the opinion that he was not executed and would like to locate supporting info.

Thanks
Gary

Geoff Hudson

THE TESIMONIUM FLAVIANUM TO JOHN THE PROPHET

About the same time another wicked attempt by Pilate put the Jews into disorder. Now there was about this time John, a poor Rechabite, if it be sufficient to call him a Rechabite, for he was a doer of wonderful signs, a teacher of such men as receive the Spirit of Truth with joy. He drew over to the Spirit both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Prophet; and Pilate at the suggestion of the High Priest Annas condemned him to death.

For Pilate condemned him, who was a righteous man, and commanded the Jews to be pure, both towards one another, and towards God, and so to come to the Spirit; for the purification of the Spirit would be acceptable to him. Now when many others came in crowds about him, for they were very greatly moved by the Spirit, Pilate, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise), thought it best, by condemning him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late. Accordingly he was sent a prisoner out of Pilate’s suspicious temper to Annas and was put to death as a false prophet.

Those that loved the Spirit at the first did not forsake him, for the Spirit appeared to them as the divine prophets had foretold; and the clan of Rechabites, so named from Recab, are not extinct at, this day. This was the second occasion of enmity between John and Annas.

NOTES

1. My version of the Testimonium is a combination of Ant. 18.3.3 and Ant. 18.5.2. It is my assertion that these two sections of text belong together, and that both were concerned with the death of John the Prophet. The whole story in Ant. 18.5 about Herodias being divorced from a pseudo brother called Phillip, Herod Antipas’ divorce from the daughter of king Aretas, Antipas’ illegal marriage to Herodias, John’s supposed condemnation of Antipas and Herodias for their supposedly illegal marriage, the beheading of John by Herod Antipas and the war between the two heads of state, is a complete fabrication and frame-up by later editors. One only has to read the ridiculous story about Paulina and Mundus immediately following the Testimonium to realize that one is in a very “delicate” area of Antiquities where chicanery and cover-ups by editors were the norm. The one account of John’s death was turned by the editors into two deaths to insert the pseudo death of the Christ (Jesus). Unfortunately for them, they missed, or were unable to correct their error, of having Jesus die before John.

2. The ficticious character of Judas is a composite of the two real characters of Pilate and Annas the High Priest. Annas not only feared John as a Prophet whose message could destroy the priesthood with its rich pickings for the High Priests, but he also had a very personal reason to be rid of John (to do with that cover-up story about Paulina and Mundus). As a willing accomplice, he took Pilate’s bribe to capture John. Pilate also wanted John dead to pre-empt the possibility of an uprising. This is why Pilate and Annas (not Antipas) “became friends.” Later it was Pilate who committed suicide, to avoid being executed by Tiberias for irresponsible governorship subsequently.

Geoff

Capt_Drakes

Maybe he fell headlong

Geoff Hudson

You may be more correct than you realise.

Some of the words used to describe the death of Judas are exactly those one might expect for someone who had been stoned to death in accordance with Jewish tradition. there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, These words are hardly a description of a hanging.

There is an article in the Jewish Encyclopedia on Capital Punishment – a Rabbinic view which may be somewhat sanitized compared to the punishments inflicted by Sadducean high priests, see <a href="http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com" target="_blank">http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com</A> .

About the modes of punishment, the Encyclopedia says: ‘Rabbinic law based on Pentateuchal authority affixes death by stoning to enticing individuals to idolatry, Deut. 13.7-12.’ This implicitly includes a prophet whose foretold signs and wonders come true but who leads people away from the “gods you have not known.” (Deut. 13.1-5). John the Prophet was encouraging others to worship the Spirit who the Sadducean high priesthood rejected. Hence he was open to the charge of idolatry. As the Sadducees rejected the idea of resurrection or an afterlife, concepts of soul or spirit, would be foreign to their theology.

The Encyclopedia: ‘the Rabbis would not permit the protraction of the interval between sentence and execution, which they considered as the most terrible period in the convict’s existence.’ After John’s sentence I think there was an unholy rush on the part of the high priests to have John executed, prompting Pilate to express surprise that ‘he was already dead’ (Mk. 15.44). No doubt the execution of this popular figure was carried out quickly, secretly, and in the dark (the ‘third hour’ of the night?) to avoid public protest. Quite possibly, John was left hidden under a pile of stones. The high priests and Pilate would never have been so crazy as to entertain the public daytime execution a popular figure while thousands of pilgrims were pouring into Jerusalem for a festival.

About the execution of the sentence, the Encyclopedia says:

• ‘he is given to drink a mixture of wine and olibanum, that he may become stupefied and not realize the painful close of his earthly career’ – it appears that Jesus (imo John) did not take it (Mk.15.23).
• ‘When he is brought near to the fateful place, he is divested of his clothes and covered in front.’
• ‘Then the prosecuting witnesses proceed to carry out the sentence.’ – for stoning this occurs as follows:
• ‘The convict having been placed on a platform twice his height, one of the witnesses throws him to the ground.’
• ‘If the concussion does not produce instant death, the second witness hurls a heavy stone at his chest;’
• ‘and only when this also proves insufficient to end his misery, the bystanders throw stones at the prostrate body until death ensues.’

Being thrown from a height, particularly down a rock face (the Place of the Skull?), and having a heavy stone hurled at his chest was more than sufficient to make his guts spill out.

Geoff

Amen-Moses

I'm confused, are you conflating John, Jesus, Judas and James into one person or what?

IIRC, John was beheaded by Heron Antipas, JC crucified by Pilate, Judas commited a weird suicide and James was the one stoned in front of the Temple.

Amen-Moses