Freethought & Rationalism Archive

luvluv · 09-04-2002, 10:35 AM

I have been engaged in many debates that posit that Christians (or other theists) proclaim that good is omnibenevolent. I'm not sure that is what Christians claim, and I'm not sure that is even a coherent concept.

I don't think Christians believe that an infinite good is even possible. Goodness is a universal, like redness or triangleness. Can something be infinitely red? Or infinitely triangular? I think goodness means only totally lacking in evil. Once something totally lacks in evil, it is as good as is possible. Goodness is defined as totally lacking in evil, and I don't think it is possible to have less than none of something.

This doesn't really change any of the arguments I've made, but I hope this can shed some new light on the subject. I don't think omnibenevolence, an infinite goodness, is a coherent concept. Once you totally lack evil, that's as good as it gets.

This is just something to mull over. I'm not really making any claims here, it's just something I've been thinking about.

Philosoft · 09-04-2002, 10:41 AM

Um, have you defined 'evil' somewhere else and I just missed it?

luvluv · 09-04-2002, 10:45 AM

I have moderately but I guess we could try to work out a more coherent definition.

First I'd like to ask you if you think evil exists and what you think it is?

Technos · 09-04-2002, 11:20 AM

"I'm not sure omnibenvolence exists"

I'm sure it doesn't.

Philosoft · 09-04-2002, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv:
<strong>First I'd like to ask you if you think evil exists and what you think it is?</strong>

'Evil' exists in the same way 'beauty' exists. That is, they are both words that describe our own emotional states when we think about certain things.

ex-preacher · 09-04-2002, 11:33 AM

I think we use the term "omnibenevolence" to mean "all good." Somebody added "omni" to match with omniscience (all-knowing) and omnipotence (all-powerful). It has been obvious for some time now that if a god exists, it cannot be all-powerful and all-good.

Vanderzyden · 09-04-2002, 11:41 AM

Good thinking, luvluv.

Benevolence indicates a disposition toward doing good. Omni is Latin for "all" or "universally". So omnibenevolence would strictly mean universally disposed toward doing good. It would not mean infinite goodness.

We could go further and consider the concept of infinity. Surely, it can be argued than infinity doesn't exist in nature. It is primarily a mathematical convenience. When we consider the person of God himself, perhaps a better substitute would be [i]immeasurable[i].

Immeasurable goodness is seemingly an apt description to be taken from Scripture. The difficulty of course, is that some would make God in their own fashion. And, when he appears to fail their demands, they either reject or deny his existence.

How many times have we heard, "I can't believe in a God that would do that". To this, I like to respond like a particular Navy chaplain, who said "Tell me what kind of God you don't believe in, and I probably don't believe in him, either."

Vanderzyden

Vanderzyden · 09-04-2002, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ex-preacher:
<strong> It has been obvious for some time now that if a god exists, it cannot be all-powerful and all-good.</strong>

May I ask, what has made it plain to you?

Vanderzyden

ex-preacher · 09-04-2002, 11:46 AM

Reason and experience.

Koyaanisqatsi · 09-04-2002, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
We could go further and consider the concept of infinity. Surely, it can be argued than infinity doesn't exist in nature. It is primarily a mathematical convenience. When we consider the person of God himself, perhaps a better substitute would be immeasurable.

Immeasurable goodness is seemingly an apt description to be taken from Scripture. The difficulty of course, is that some would make God in their own fashion. And, when he appears to fail their demands, they either reject or deny his existence.

Well, why stop there? So far, you've got a creature who is immeasurable that is universally disposed toward doing good...

Oh...wait...wouldn't that last bit be a measurable quality?

Nevermind. Why bother with being logically consistent when measuring the immeasurable?

09-04-2002, 10:35 AM	#1
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	I'm not sure omnibenvolence exists I have been engaged in many debates that posit that Christians (or other theists) proclaim that good is omnibenevolent. I'm not sure that is what Christians claim, and I'm not sure that is even a coherent concept. I don't think Christians believe that an infinite good is even possible. Goodness is a universal, like redness or triangleness. Can something be infinitely red? Or infinitely triangular? I think goodness means only totally lacking in evil. Once something totally lacks in evil, it is as good as is possible. Goodness is defined as totally lacking in evil, and I don't think it is possible to have less than none of something. This doesn't really change any of the arguments I've made, but I hope this can shed some new light on the subject. I don't think omnibenevolence, an infinite goodness, is a coherent concept. Once you totally lack evil, that's as good as it gets. This is just something to mull over. I'm not really making any claims here, it's just something I've been thinking about.

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09-04-2002, 10:41 AM	#2
Philosoft Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Southeast of disorder Posts: 6,829	Um, have you defined 'evil' somewhere else and I just missed it?

09-04-2002, 10:45 AM	#3
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	I have moderately but I guess we could try to work out a more coherent definition. First I'd like to ask you if you think evil exists and what you think it is?

09-04-2002, 11:20 AM	#4
Technos Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Nashville, Tennessee Posts: 136	"I'm not sure omnibenvolence exists" I'm sure it doesn't.

09-04-2002, 11:33 AM	#6
ex-preacher Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: University of Arkansas Posts: 1,033	I think we use the term "omnibenevolence" to mean "all good." Somebody added "omni" to match with omniscience (all-knowing) and omnipotence (all-powerful). It has been obvious for some time now that if a god exists, it cannot be all-powerful and all-good.

09-04-2002, 11:41 AM	#7
Vanderzyden Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: California Posts: 694	Good thinking, luvluv. Benevolence indicates a disposition toward doing good. Omni is Latin for "all" or "universally". So omnibenevolence would strictly mean universally disposed toward doing good. It would not mean infinite goodness. We could go further and consider the concept of infinity. Surely, it can be argued than infinity doesn't exist in nature. It is primarily a mathematical convenience. When we consider the person of God himself, perhaps a better substitute would be [i]immeasurable[i]. Immeasurable goodness is seemingly an apt description to be taken from Scripture. The difficulty of course, is that some would make God in their own fashion. And, when he appears to fail their demands, they either reject or deny his existence. How many times have we heard, "I can't believe in a God that would do that". To this, I like to respond like a particular Navy chaplain, who said "Tell me what kind of God you don't believe in, and I probably don't believe in him, either." Vanderzyden

09-04-2002, 11:46 AM	#9
ex-preacher Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: University of Arkansas Posts: 1,033	Reason and experience.

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