lpetrich

I wonder what typical Jewish views on Jesus Christ are, at least when they are not trying to tell Xians what they want to hear.

Is it that JC is a lost sheep? A heretic? A great Jew?

According to Devnet in his secular-Jewish phase (I'm not sure that Heathen Dawn is really Devnet), a common traditional Jewish view of Xianity is that it is grossly polytheistic and idolatrous (think Catholicism here), and that Islam was not as bad a heresy.

motorhead

Religious Jews do not believe that Jesus was the promised Jewish Messiah. The characteristics of the Jewish Messiah are spelled out in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). They do not believe he was the Messiah because the Messiah will not:
die for the sins of the humanity, be resurrected, be born by virgin conception, or be Yahweh himself. Jesus does not fit as Messiah at all.

The disagreement between religious Jews and Christians is in the interpretation of verses in the Hebrew Scriptures which allegedly talk about the Messiah. Religious Jews point to a small number of verses which describe who the Messiah will be and what he will be like. Christians claim numerous verses talk about the Messiah but when you read most of these claimed verses in context, it's clear they're not about a Messiah at all.

I've studied this and agree with the Religious Jews that there are only a small number of verses which talk about the Messiah. The Messiah will be human, will lead Jews back to devotion to the Torah, will have the Temple rebuilt, will turn non-Jews to the worship of Yahweh, and will bring peace on Earth.

Secular Pinoy

<a href="http://www.messiahtruth.com/" target="_blank">http://www.messiahtruth.com/</a> is a website by a Jewish person or group challenging christianity's claim that Jesus was the messiah.

Apikorus

There is a broad spectrum of Jewish views on Jesus. (Unless they are taking a confessional stance, Jews do not append the title "Christ", meaning "messiah", to his name.)

One central point of agreement is that Jesus was an historical figure. And, outside the tiny minority of Jewish Christians ("messianic Jews"), Jews all reject Christian claims that Jesus was "the messiah", and emphatically reject any and all claims of his divinity.

If you are looking for the "official" Jewish views on "the messiah", I suppose the safest source would be chapters 11 and 12 of Maimonides' hilkhot melakhim from his mishneh torah:

Maimonides also discusses the qualifications of mashiakh:

Here the Rambam (the conventional Jewish nickname for Maimonides: RaMBaM = Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon = Rabbi Moses, son of Maimon) delineates what is necessary in order for one to be presumed to be the messiah: he must (i) be a king of the "house of David" (i.e. a descendant of the biblical king David), (ii) studies Torah and observes mitzvot (= commandments) of both written and oral Torah (oral Torah = Mishnah), (iii) he must compel all Israel to observe the Torah, and (iv) he must "fight the wars of God". Someone who does all these things may be presumed to be the messiah. But we can't be sure he actually is the messiah until he accomplishes two more crucial tasks: (v) he rebuilds the Temple on its holy site (which is, umm, where the Al Aqsa mosque is now standing), and (vi) he repatriates "the dispersed remnant of Israel". These criteria are based on statements strewn about the prophetic books of the Hebrew Bible.

How do we know if someone is not the messiah? Well, at this point most published editions of the mishneh torah omit some very important and relevant paragraphs, due to Christian censuring. The original text of Maimonides goes on to say:

So, a failed messiah is akin to the past Davidic kings - not necessarily a dishonorable position. Note the firm requirement that the messiah must accomplish all necessary tasks before he dies. Rambam explicitly mentions Jesus here, and cites a "proof text" from Daniel which warns of his aberrant ministry - not the sort of proof text you see invoked by Christians, of course! Jesus and Christianity are a stumbling block, leading people to serve a false god. He then apparently reverses himself somewhat and adopts in the next paragraph a more conciliatory tone, stating that Christianity and Islam (as monotheistic religions?) will in some manner "pave the way" for the coming of mashiakh. At that point, he says,

The writings of Maimonides are about as kosher as you can get - a sort of "gold standard" of Orthodox Jewish opinion (though not utterly uncontested). Conservative and Reform Jews tend to be less dogmatic about Jesus being a "stumbling block". Many believe Jesus to have been a teacher (a "rabbi" of sorts) who in fact preached the Torah, only to have his teachings corrupted. (The apostle Paul is often identified as the villain in this process of corruption.) They believe that Jesus would have found his later deification horrifying.

There are some scattered statements about Jesus in the Talmud, some of which are rather, well, unflattering. But largely Jesus is ignored in the Talmud. Also it is not clear whether the Talmudic statements about Jesus reflect genuine traditions with first century CE roots, or whether they are later reactions to Christian dogma.

Jewish messianism is often a poorly understood concept. While the disaster of the Babylonian exile provoked hopes of future redemption and revival of the Israelite nation, the Hebrew Bible itself presents no coherent messianic framework. The word משיח (mashiakh), which means "anointed", appears less than 40 times therein. Usually it refers to David or some other Judaean king - these kings were anointed (with oil) to serve יהוה . The only places the definite article (ha-) modifies "mashiakh" is in Leviticus, where the term hamashiakh ("the anointed one") refers to the high priest in association with his performance of cultic rituals. In the entire Book of Isaiah, which Christians have traditionally used as almost a fifth gospel with its many "proof texts" and "prophecies" of Jesus, the word משיח appears but once, in Isa 45:1, where it refers to the Persian king Cyrus!

Nevertheless, rabbinic Judaism presents a strong messianology. It is written in the Talmud that a Jew who does not believe in the messiah will have no place in the world to come. One (#12) of Maimonides' thirteen articles of Jewish faith states that "I believe in the coming of the messiah". These messianic beliefs were developed during the late Persian, Hellenistic, Hasmonean, and Roman eras (ca. 400 BCE - 135 CE) before they were crystallized in rabbinic thought and literature. The textual evidence comes from the pseudepigrapha, the Targumim (Aramaic translations of the Hebrew Bible), and the Dead Sea Scrolls. An excellent book on the subject is J. J. Collins' The Scepter and the Star.

[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: Apikorus ]</p>

lpetrich

Thanx a lot, Apikorus. So the Jewish Messiah will essentially be someone who restores the old nation of Israel; the current nation is evidently not quite there.

And I think that Davidic descent must have become rather difficult to recognize after 2500 years.

And Maimonides's view on Jesus Christ might be summed up as "Nice try".

Paul being the main villain is actually logical in a way, because he had introduced the savior-god idea, the whole original-sin-and-salvation scheme, and stuff like that. In Jewish tradition, the Messiah clearly does not die for anyone's sins.

lpetrich

Another Jewish site that answers Xians is <a href="http://jewsforjudaism.org" target="_blank">Jews for Judaism</a>.

Apikorus

Loren, you've got to be a little careful with information from groups like Jews for Judaism and Outreach Judaism since they are anti-missionary organizations and hence tendentiously anti-Christian. A few years ago one of the leaders of Jews for Judaism, rabbi Bentzion Kravitz, gave some lectures at my synagogue about the Christian missionary "threat" to Jews and Judaism. I was amused and slightly appalled by his minimizing authentic Jewish messianic interpretations of various biblical passages. There's a reactionary element within Judaism which seeks to distance Judaism from any biblical exegesis or traditions which are associated with Christianity. Thus, they categorically reject the possibility that, e.g. Isaiah 53 might be interpreted messianically, even though there are numerous rabbinic writings which interpret it in precisely that way (though of course none of the rabbis says that deutero-Isaiah's "servant of YHWH" is Jesus). From a scholarly point of view this is quite misguided, since Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism evolved out of the same pluralistic Jewish matrix in first century Palestine. Hence it should be no surprise to find commonalities among Jewish and Christian approaches to certain biblical passages. Pre-Christian Jewish sects such as the Qumranians exegeted several biblical passages messianically in their pesherim, and there is a strong rabbinic tradition here as well, as exemplified in the earliest relevant documents, such as the Targumim.

The bottom line is this: for 2000 years, rabbis have been aware of Christian claims and "evidence" regarding Jesus, but nevertheless have overwhelmingly rejected them.

[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: Apikorus ]</p>

MOJO-JOJO

Interesting.....I'd like to hear a debate between 'Jews for Judaism' and 'Jews for Jesus'(Messianic Jews), to see how they argue and defend their respective myths...er..beliefs.

Apikorus

MOJO, you can get a flavor of that by perusing their respective web sites. They're constantly taking swipes at each other.

I confess that I get more pleasure from seeing the Christian missionaries confounded. I even contribute a little money to an antimissionary group in Israel now and then. If I might proffer an analogy: Christianity is to religion what the New York Yankees are to baseball. They have an enormous budget, millions of fans/adherents, etc. We Jews are like the Pittsburgh Pirates or Kansas City Royals. We have a small but very loyal following. It's all just a game, but some people take it very seriously. And if the Christians keep poaching our players, we run the risk that one day we'll be contracted.

sighhswolf

You may know this work already, but if not you should take the time to read "Toledoth Yeshu".
This is a derogatory look at Jesus from a Jewish perspective.
Whether the text is valid I cant say, but it certainly enlightened me as to how many Jews see
the life and ministry of the NT Jesus.
Interesting work.
Check out the homepage of Alan Humm for many links to ancient texts.
Wolf