mibby529

1) If Hitler had prayed for forgiveness before the cyanide set in, would he be in heaven?
2) If so, then is it fair for a person who lived a perfectly moral life, but wasn't Xian, and died in defense of others, to go to hell? (Before you answer this, consider that an affirmative is legally defined as genocide by the UN.)
3) If one has to be a member of your religion to survive, why didn't your god reveal himself to all peoples? If he did, why should I drop my peoples' beliefs for yours? (Deloria's paradox)
4) And since I am a creation of said god, what gives you any right to change me? (Matthiessen's corollary)

wildernesse

2) If so, then is it fair for a person who lived a perfectly moral life, but wasn't Xian, and died in defense of others, to go to hell? (Before you answer this, consider that an affirmative is legally defined as genocide by the UN.)

Where does the UN talk about people going to hell? Is this the part you are talking about?


<a href="http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html" target="_blank">UN Convention on Genocide</a>

I'm interested in how you reach your conclusion that nonbelievers in hell equals genocide according to the UN.

Since I don't know much about heaven/hell, and will only know what's what after I'm dead, I'm afraid I can't answer your questions with certainty.

Number 3 is a good thing to consider--should the second question be "If he didn't"?

In number 4, do you mean that no one should ever want any person (creation) to change? Because the creator made you just the way you were supposed to be?

--tiba

Tom Sawyer

1) If Hitler had prayed for forgiveness before the cyanide set in, would he be in heaven?

Yes. The deathbed confession loophole is one of the main selling points of Christianity. It allows people to do whatever they want with their lives and then just slip in an "Oops, I'm sorry" at the end and none of the stuff before matters. God didn't read the fine print before agreeing to that one and this allows people to beat the system.

2) If so, then is it fair for a person who lived a perfectly moral life, but wasn't Xian, and died in defense of others, to go to hell? (Before you answer this, consider that an affirmative is legally defined as genocide by the UN.)

Yes, it is fair. Moral actions in and of themselves are irrelevant to God. The only thing that matters is that you accept the domination of some specific guy who may or may not have been introduced to your culture or given you any reason to assume that He's any more the path to the afterlife than the magical fish that your tribe worships. When you arrive at the Pearly Gates, the response "But I've never heard of Jesus Christ - by the way, who are you?" won't get you in and you'll spend eternity in hellfire because you chose to accept one fiction instead of another one with no more or less credibility than the one you chose.

3) If one has to be a member of your religion to survive, why didn't your god reveal himself to all peoples? If he did, why should I drop my peoples' beliefs for yours? (Deloria's paradox)

Don't know. Don't know.

4) And since I am a creation of said god, what gives you any right to change me? (Matthiessen's corollary)

If you're not changed, then you will burn in hell for all eternity, so the inconvenience caused by imprisoning and torturing you because you refuse to accept the True Faith is a small price to pay beside saving your soul. It's really all for your own good and things will go much easier once you realize that.

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: peteyh ]</p>

mibby529

@wildernesse:
Let's see how many religions were destroyed by missionaries. The Xians didn't come to power by the force of their ideas; they came to power by force, period.

@peteyh:
I'm familiar with deathbed confession; it was a rhetorical question. Those last two are the main push among Indians for a return to traditional beliefs.

wildernesse

I think what you are trying to say is: People who are non-believers go to hell. This is genocide because it’s killing people for the sole reason of their religious belief. Is denying eternal life to the already dead really creating conditions of life that cause physical destruction? My point, I guess, is that how do you propose genocide for people who are already dead? Is God under laws from the UN?
Let's see how many religions were destroyed by missionaries. The Xians didn't come to power by the force of their ideas; they came to power by force, period.
Missionaries are under laws from the UN, as well as Christians in general. But are Christians the ones choosing to send people to hell? Just because you say it, doesn’t make it so. Also, destroying religions isn’t genocide. Religions aren’t people. Persecuting and destroying the worshipers of a religious group is genocide.

I think you might have a better case for the genocide argument if you said that people who tell other people that they are going to hell because of their “false” religious beliefs are committing genocide because they are causing serious mental harm to a group. Then you’d have to prove that causing serious mental harm by telling them they’re going to hell is because of an intent to destroy the people of the religious group—not just the religion they espouse.

My thoughts.
--tiba

Tercel

<strong>1) If Hitler had prayed for forgiveness before the cyanide set in, would he be in heaven?</strong>
If he had really meant it and really changed then yes of course. What's important isn't what we've done, but our attitude towards it. If a moment before death he completely regretted everything bad he had done and wanted nothing more than the best for everyone then I say of course he'd be in heaven.

<strong>2) If so, then is it fair for a person who lived a perfectly moral life, but wasn't Xian, and died in defense of others, to go to hell? (Before you answer this, consider that an affirmative is legally defined as genocide by the UN.)</strong>
I don't give two figs about what the UN thinks. To answer your question: I don't think such a person would go to hell. Hypothetically speaking it would probably be "fair" since we have no claims on God that would entitle us to say "unfair", but it wouldn't be very nice of God to send them to hell.

<strong>3) If one has to be a member of your religion to survive, why didn't your god reveal himself to all peoples? If he did, why should I drop my peoples' beliefs for yours? (Deloria's paradox)</strong>
Because one doesn't have to be a member of my religion to survive.

<strong>4) And since I am a creation of said god, what gives you any right to change me? (Matthiessen's corollary)</strong>
You'll have to explain this one a bit more clearly, I don't get it.

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: Tercel ]</p>

Tercel

Double Post.

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: Tercel ]</p>

mibby529

Okay, Matthiessen's Corollary to Deloria's Paradox first appears in a work of fiction by Peter Matthiessen whose title escapes me (It's about a mercenary and a missionary in South America.) as "You believe in God, Reverend? If God made Indians the way we are, what right do you have to change that?" It's usually given as a corollary to Deloria's Paradox, though it can easily stand on its own.

Bible Humper

Hello Tercel

I am sure that you are opposed to genocide when it is done by some earthly dictator, right? Hold Yahweh to this standard and he starts to look like a prick, doesn't he?

Even Hitler didn't order the Jews to be tortured for a prolonged period of time, Yahweh is far worse!

Might makes right! The Jews had no claim on Hitler to say "unfair" either, since he was an elected autocrat!

You "don't think" Yahweh would send them to hell based on what exactly? As far as I know, the only source of Yahweh lore is the bible.

Where does this type of information come from? I think it was quite clear in your bible what the requirements to enter heaven are, and they do indeed include being a christian.

Do christians just create their own Yahweh as they go along, based on their own proclivities? It must be convenient and comforting that Yahweh thinks just like you do!

Tercel

Of course.

Perhaps. That rather depends on whether you believe the Bible when it relates the things Yahweh supposedly did. I seriously doubt you believe those things to be true (since I presume you're an atheist), so why do I have to believe it?

If you say so. No doubt you know better than me what the Bible says. No doubt you know better than several centuries of Orthodox theologians.