Amos

That will just depend on your idea of God and of belief. Believe is from be-lief is be willing. So yes, I be-lief in God. By claifying this I do not have to fit different ideas of believe.

Sabine Grant

Bonjour Amos.... And that is my whole point... that you can retain your personal belief and representation of God without having to comply to any organized religion dogma.

If you can consider that your relationship with God depends on how you treat the rest of your fellow human beings and not on theology or dogma. IMO we have more freedom in evaluating what is a good treatment rather than a bad treatment if we avoid complying to any dogma.

We also have to be careful with finding excuses and justifications to bad treatment by attributing that treatment to the so called " God's Will". IMO that is what all dogmatic systems have done.
i.e the colonialization of tribal systems under the justification that they needed to " be saved". The fact is that faith cannot be forced fed or imposed on anyone. There is no justification to it no matter how much we pertain to have God's approval.

Can you see now how Ronin could be offended by the concept that you proposed earlier in your remarks regarding his ancestry? To him , religious colonialization is what caused his people to loose their sense of profound identity and freedom to be as they wish to be. And it is a historical reality. You cannot today tell him that he will find some type of recovery or his people would by seeking what you believe to be the solution thru Mary. If you clip the wings of an eagle, he cannot soar anylonger. He can only remember how it was like to soar and grieve the loss of his wings. Incorporation as you suggested it is almost like a prison. And I do not make much difference between the purpose of an indian reservation and a refugee camp similar to the ones Macedonians were placed into in various places in Europe.

You can only expect justified anger and indignation from the folks anywhere in the world whose wings were clipped as you suggest for them to seek recovery in the very hands which terminated their ability to soar thru their culture and freedom to be as they wish to be.

Sabine Grant

Amos... still awaiting your reply.

Amos

I hope you followed blondegoddess' post on "relationship with God" and have seen how many millions of people have suffered as a direct result of this vainglorious freedom in Christ and if you must treat others because you are a Christian it will bite you in the ass just like a scorpion would every time you do it. [/quote][/b]

We also have to be careful with finding excuses and justifications to bad treatment by attributing that treatment to the so called " God's Will". IMO that is what all dogmatic systems have done.
i.e the colonialization of tribal systems under the justification that they needed to " be saved". The fact is that faith cannot be forced fed or imposed on anyone. There is no justification to it no matter how much we pertain to have God's approval.[/quote][/b]

Do you ever hear a Catholic priest say "God told me so?" Do you ever hear a Catholic priest say that "tribes need to be saved?" You are mixed up with protestant dogma here Sabine because Catholics themselves are not even saved! Why else do you think protestants love the get their greedy clutches on mellow Catholics if not the snatch them away from the Church. In our view God is the potter and we are to be the moldable clay that God can work with (to wit, moldable means not saved). [/quote][/b]

Can you see now how Ronin could be offended by the concept that you proposed earlier in your remarks regarding his ancestry? To him , religious colonialization is what caused his people to loose their sense of profound identity and freedom to be as they wish to be. And it is a historical reality. You cannot today tell him that he will find some type of recovery or his people would by seeking what you believe to be the solution thru Mary. If you clip the wings of an eagle, he cannot soar anylonger. He can only remember how it was like to soar and grieve the loss of his wings. Incorporation as you suggested it is almost like a prison. And I do not make much difference between the purpose of an indian reservation and a refugee camp similar to the ones Macedonians were placed into in various places in Europe.[/quote][/b]

Ah but we're not clipping wings but giving them bigger wings to soar with (greater mythology, is greater God). Don't forget there that it was Luther who complained that the Church would not allow him to set free underdeveloped 'eagles' (he would hatch them prematurily) and the Reformation was fought on that same issue. In the end we let him have his way and now blondegoddess and millions of others are suffering because of it.

Liberation is not easy at the best of times (protestants have never found it or they'd be singing Ave Maria's), and it is wrong to blame their problem on the Catholics. If anything, the protestant influence is the cause of this problem in all of the Western world because Catholicism is no longer allowed to be Catholic as Catholicism once was. Why else do you think the renaissance crashed in both Eurpose and Russia?

And don't forget that Ronin never soared because once you know how you'll never lose that ability (understand well here that Catholics can soar without burning bible passages to stay aloft). Yes, it's much like learning to ride a bike, if you wish.Oh, but I do suggest that for their own benefit and will never force anybody to do anything. I don't think the Church ever did but it usually is the 'clipped-wing' protestants who fly about through midheaven that are the trouble makers. Yes, they are the scripture burners. See above in this post and you will recognize them.

Sorry for being late.

Hail

Amos:If anything, the protestant influence is the cause of this problem in all of the Western world because Catholicism is no longer allowed to be Catholic as Catholicism once was. Why else do you think the renaissance crashed in both Eurpose and Russia?

Suppose I say this reminds me of a saying in Kenya that when two elephants wrestle is the grass/(people) that really gets trampled.

Amos

Yes but the grass has been trampled ever since and will continue to get trampled until just a few clumps remain here and there.

The elephant analogy is really wrong in that before that time there was only one elephant and there was peace among the elephants on a world wide scale because they were kept distant from each other.

Hail

The elephant analogy is really wrong in that before that time there was only one elephant and there was peace among the elephants.

I have to think about there being one elephant but peace among the elephants unless you mean one elephant per region. Now if there was peace because the elephants were apart does that not mean the fighting elephants are are the war. They fight because they want thier ideas and views to be the highest influence adhered to by the people around them. Nearly all of them claim to have an especially clarified view of the nature of things ect which is the only way for mankind to fly. All the gorups have managed only to hobble along to here and now via some oftern sordid means and sometimes splitting and reforming to distance themselves from it's unpleasantness. None have managed to prevent the loss of security in the world exemplified in the 911 incident but will encourage that following the long known ways in more ernest will create a more positive change. I will be a voice that says reconsider this. We have everybody believeing or behaving like they believe they are better than everybody else. In this day and age a single human who has had it with the system can wreak real havoc against large populations. In this situation this problemmatic view among others can transelate into kalamity. That is how come I try to discourage it for all.

Amos

Yes that is what it means. One religion per tribe and they are prepared to defend their rights as a nation under the surpreme authority of the tribe. We call it God, others call it Buddha.

That's because we have more than one elephant in our tribe and the unrest within the tribe will create friction around the world. I see the 9/11 incident as an act of retalliation.That is the best solution. Each to his own. We are better here and they are better there and each should be allowed to be proud of their own heritage.