Arrowman

<Arrowman waves at Amie>
Hi Amie!

Not a lot of time right now but I'll throw in some thoughts which might clarify what I'm saying.

I don't think they are the same thing - one is the deliberate infliction of pain as punishment, usually via repeated premeditated blows, while the other is the infliction of a sharp and hopefully minor moment of pain for the purpose of (a) preventing something serious from happening, or (b) gaining attention / getting the child to take you seriously.

For myself - I have three children and I'd say the total number of smacks administered would have been about - oh, ten or so between the three of them, and none since the ages of about 7 or 8. Most of these have been in the "supermarket situation" - you're out in public, trying to get something done, the kids are going feral and not listening to you. One quick smack on the hand or backside (and I stress - nothing very painful) and they know you're serious and demanding their attention.

(Actually in those situations, I believe the best thing is for a complete stranger to remark loudly in front of your children how rotten they are being It's amazing how kids will ignore their own parents, and think they are invisible to the rest of the world, and the overt (and negative) reaction of strangers will really bring them back to reality with a rush! Unfortunately most people are too polite to do this. )

Usually the reaction I have had from my kids to a smack in the "supermarket situation" has been a sudden, wide-eyed, "oh, whoops! Dad's serious; I've been doing bad things" look (ie, it worked) rather than some terrified, pained look (ie, I shouldn't have done it).

If I am close to a 2 year old who is about to poke a knife into a power point, I will not quietly persuade them not to do it. And I will not rely on gently withdrawing the hand accompanied by a rational explanation, to protect them from that behaviour in future.

If I am in a supermarket and my child is acting up, I will not stand back reasoning with them while they destroy the mayonnaise display. (To say nothing of the pickles )

Now, in both of those and other situations, I am sure those who are anti-smacking can come up with any number of alternatives which are more effective than the "sit back and reason with them" approach I have to some extent parodied above.

But - * shrug * - I don't think it's as important to find alternatives to the occasional smack, as it is to find alternatives to spanking. I do think it is a mistake to equate the two things too closely.

(At the same time, I think if we restrict the definition of spanking as I have, we'll have a very dull poll here because I don't think too many people are going to stand up and say they agree with spanking as I have defined it. The real debate might come on the subject of whether the law should punish people for spanking.)

Cheers
Arrowman

Amie

Thanks for sharing your experiences, and I agree with this being a potentially good thing to discuss...
I am curious to know how many spankers or pro spankers were ex-spankees...
food for thought...

Talulah

Yes, I should have clarified that and added more to my post as well. Sorry about that, I got distracted while I was posting it.

I also wanted to ask some questions along the vein of:

1.) For those that spank, do you use objects

2.) For those that don't spank, why don't you? Is it something that you decided based on your own experiances as a child?

I hesitantly agree with Arrowman on the 'smacking' issue, although the term still makes me nervous because it reflects on the idea that you are still hitting a child. I think around the age of 2-3 that a quick smack for attention purposes in the event of things like running out in streets, keeping the child close by you in a dangerous situation, other potentially dangerous behavoir (the overused electrical outlet example) might be the most effective and immediate way to gain their attention and obediance, in a situation you NEED it (not just want it).

As for me, the first time I remember thinking consciously about spanking and the idea of it being right or wrong was in the 2nd grade. My parents had pulled strings and gone up to school trying to ensure that I got a certain teacher for the 2nd grade, who was a member of the church of Christ like my parents were. They thought she would teach 'Christian values.' At that same time, my little brother (5), who was learning disabled was getting spanked (definition: leaned over the bed, with a belt, multiple strikes until he screamed) at least once a day for anything imaginable. This was already making me think a little I guess because I was always such a sensitive child. I suddenly became aware of it, in a way that never occured to me when I got spanked, because I didn't have to try and hide or cover my ears to block out the sounds.
My teacher, great portrayer of Christian values she was, gave the class a lecture about lying. She said that in her house, lying was considered so bad that the punishment was a spanking with pants down. Now, my parents, probably due to some prudeness, wouldn't have ever considered such an idea. I was horrified and remember thinking suddenly that that was just wrong. Ever since then I have been an opponant of spanking, something I never mentioned until I was in high school. I got spanked myself until I was 15, my brother until 17, my other brother is 15 and I know if my Dad thinks he deserves it, he will spank him too.

abe smith

If the kid is too young to know enough language (not) to learn from your verbal teaching/signal, FOR CHRIST'S SAKE>>>>> it is your *job* as that kid's parent or parent-surrogate to supervise/watch-over that baby every single moment of its existence, in order to KEEP IT ALIVE! What the hell do you think MOTHERS are for? You cannot teach safe(ty) practises to a not-yet-verbal infant! YOU have to BE its intelligence! This is the/one of the price(s) that humankind pay for being kicked-out of the womb in a still-foetal state >>>> because head-size = survival is determined by the ability of the pelvic-window to let the newborn's cranium through. (True, Caesarian section-technique now (unlike in Jane Seymour's time) permits larger craniaed kids to survive.)Don't waste your time trying to think up ways to make mindless infants obey your verbal rules! WATCH THAT BABY so that its stupidity won't get it dead! WATCH THAT BABY!

Per

Well, I do not under any circumstances think that corporal punishment in any form is acceptable, least of all towards children. A couple of years ago it was even forbidden by law, following the reason that once it was legal for a man to hit his wife and servants; this was just taking the last logical step.

Corona688

Someone's been doing too many presentations.

Bookman

I have two children (age 2 1/2 and nearly 4); we don't use artifical physical consequences (spanking or smacking) as punishment for any reason ever.

If you have control of the child and can administer a smack, hasn't the danger passed? If one sees a child about to grab a hot pot (for instance) if you can snatch the child away to safety, you do. If you can't, you yell "NO!" or "STOP!" at the top of your lungs. At the very least, the startle should give you the time you need to deal with the situation.

Pre-speech children understand language very early, before the age of one year by most accounts. It is easier to deliver a "no" message than your question indicates.

Bookman

B34RZ0R

Interesting Topic:

Being the wee one I am helping to raise is only 16 months old I can't say that anything other than a stern NO and or just picking her up and moving her over to another location would be appropriate as a deterant. But with my Nieces and Nephews.. I just talk it up that I will spank them and give them "the look"; that combined with my shaved head and tattoos does the trick on them. I don't think in all my babysitting I have Spanked (as defined) though when my nephew starts the boob and butt grabbing that he knows he is not supposed to do and I have told him repeatedly to stop it he may get a swat to the bottom or just moved to another room. Side note: He understands what police do and I told him that if he does that sort of thing when he is older he will get arrested.. but still no response, I fear that he will end up thinking it is ok to do whatever he wants to women, that saddens and angers me (redneck father partly to blame)! I guess on the state involvement I would say no! Because I was spanked -not abused- and I am not some malicious idiot that has no self discipline, and my parents didn't do it on a whim it was when I was actually being a little hellion. So unless it is a case of true abuse I say no to the state punishing adults for reprimanding their children.
But hey that is my opinion...
Be Well
*Bear*

Jamie_L

I have two small children: almost 3 and 1 1/2. I have never "spanked" them, and have only smacked them on a handful of occasions.

It's been my experience with my children that effective means of communicating with non-verbal children are voice and physical relocation. That is, a good, stern shout and picking the child up and moving them somewhere else is enough for them to get the message. Sometimes multiple movings may be required, but it works.

Furthermore, a child that doesn't speak understands much more than they can say, so communication isn't as difficult as one might imagine.

The few times that I smacked my kids, the result was not what I intended. The reaction was often one that was directed more at me than at the event. That is, if I shout and move the child, the child gets mad because I stopped them from doing something. If I smack them, they are shocked and fearful that I have physically hurt them. These are not feelings I want to instill in my children, and I also wonder if it might be less effective because the punishment distracts them from what I am trying to communicate.

I also noticed early on that my older child had a tendency to pick up on how I try to get my way with them. That is, when she saw me smack my youngest to get him to stop something, she would think that was an acceptable behavior. Later, I would see her trying to smack my son to get him to stop playing with some toy.

Given all that, I found physical discipline to be unnecessary and even undesirable. I will never "spank" them, and I plan not to smack them unless absoluetly necessary. However, right now I can't conceive of such a situation.

Jamie

Arrowman

Hehe. Freudian slip? Generally, I disdain the knife in preference to a quick fist to the screen.

Still, it does give pause for thought. I'm envisioning [if you've ever used nVision, please don't make a joke about that ] the scene with Managerial Dad sitting next to child about to stick kife in power socket.

"Thanks for sitting on the living room floor today. By the end of this talk, you should have a deeper understanding of the dangers of electricity and how to avoid them. First I'm going to explain the nature of electricity and its effect on the human biochemcial system...."

[Mother calls for ambulance]

"...and then we will provide an itemisation of the various ways in which electricity can be inadvertently applied to the human body in common household situations..."

[sound of sirens]

"...and we will conclude with some common 'war stories' from electricity users..."

[EMT rushes child from living room on stretcher]

"...and a list of suggested techniques for the safe use of electricity in the household..."

[Mother's next phone call is to divorce lawyer...]