Freethought & Rationalism Archive

danyboy809 · 11-18-2002, 12:55 AM

what do you guys think about this idea I just had?

Hayden · 11-18-2002, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by danyboy809:
what do you guys think about this idea I just had?

I'm not sure...

I don't know that it's necessarily easy to succumb to belief, for example I cannot believe the Christian Bible in a literal sense because my knowledge about nature and the earth precludes that belief. I suppose it's easy to believe that someone's out there looking after you, if there's no evidence to the contrary, but the same could be said of any premise.

As far as "hard to remain faithful to death", I don't quite know what you mean...

HR

Jobar · 11-18-2002, 08:08 AM

Welcome, danyboy809; I think this topic should go in Misc. Religion, because it does not directly address the forum title here.

I will say that for people not taught to examine ideas- to think, in short- belief in the religions and social systems they are brought up in is well-nigh automatic. And even those of us who *can* think clearly and critically are sometimes cowed by the thought of our own extinction, and are tempted to cease our honest skepticism in favor of a belief in some form of life after death. IMO such dishonesty to oneself is a source of worse suffering than the thought of death.

Heathen Dawn · 11-18-2002, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar:

And even those of us who *can* think clearly and critically are sometimes cowed by the thought of our own extinction, and are tempted to cease our honest skepticism in favor of a belief in some form of life after death. IMO such dishonesty to oneself is a source of worse suffering than the thought of death.

I don't regard my present assumption of belief as "dishonesty to myself". Certainly it is an emotional leap of faith, and I don't claim there is evidence to back up my belief, but I don't think I'm being unfaithful to myself. As for being a source of worse suffering than the thought of death, you can only speak for yourself; I know, I KNOW, that the thought of extinction is something I can't handle and need to be cured of by whatever means.

Given a choice between the harsh evidential truth and a consoling emotional fiction, I prefer the latter. My emotional well-being takes first place in my priorities, and living up to the truth comes a distant second.

Goddess and God bless you all. They exist, at least for me, even if there is no evidence for them.

lunachick · 11-18-2002, 10:06 AM

Personally, I have no problem whatsoever with death being the great nothingness at the end of what I hope is a long and good life. To do nothing more than push up daisies sounds like bliss to me. I'm happy to decompose and become soil - and will i be pissed if I ever wind up in any kind of afterlife - I just don't want it. Death is the end, and I'm happy it is.

As for belief; Xmas is coming - so I'm going to start believing in Santa right about now.

Biff the unclean · 11-18-2002, 10:16 AM

Given a choice between the harsh evidential truth and a consoling emotional fiction, I prefer the latter.
YIKES!! That speaks volumes.
Usually when people are self-deceptive they deceive themselves. You however have seen through your own deception and decided to play along with it anyway.
It's like deciding to believe in Santa Claus again.

Maybe a little philosophy would help you. This is from Epicurus (341-270 BCE) it's simple logic.

"Why should I fear death?
If I am, death is not.
If death is, I am not.
Why should I fear that which cannot exist when I do?"

Biff the unclean · 11-18-2002, 10:19 AM

What's that old expression?
"If two people say you're sick, lie down."
Two people on both sides of the planet just talked about beliveing in Santa in reaction to your post.

Time to lie down.

Heathen Dawn · 11-18-2002, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Usually when people are self-deceptive they deceive themselves. You however have seen through your own deception and decided to play along with it anyway.

I have no choice. Doing anything else would just send me into emotional turmoil. IF DEATH IS FINAL, THEN IT IS MY GREATEST FEAR!!!

I know I'm doing something that borders on self-deception, but I'm only trying to cure myself. What's so bad about trying to cure myself of a life-paralysing sickness?!

Quote:

"Why should I fear death?
If I am, death is not.
If death is, I am not.
Why should I fear that which cannot exist when I do?"

This is just logic. There's nothing in there that could console my emotions. No matter how you slice it, the idea of death as total nothingness is something that makes me crazy with fear!

Quote:

What's that old expression?
"If two people say you're sick, lie down."
Two people on both sides of the planet just talked about beliveing in Santa in reaction to your post.
Time to lie down.

I prefer other doctors.

Materialism: no hope at all. All is futile. All are riding the conveyor-belt towards darkness. As Bertrand Russell said:

Quote:

Brief and powerless is Man's life; on him and all his race the slow, sure doom falls pitiless and dark. Blind to good and evil, reckless of destruction, omnipotent matter rolls on its relentless way; for Man, condemned today to lose his dearest, tomorrow himself to pass through the gate of darkness, it remains only to cherish, ere yet the blow falls, the lofty thoughts that ennoble his little day, disdaining the coward terrors of the slave of Fate.

- I don't want this.
- No-one's asking you if you want this.
- DAMNED BE IT ALL!!!

Heathen Dawn · 11-18-2002, 11:12 AM

~ RATIONALITY, GO AWAY! ~

~ RATIONALITY, I HAVE NO NEED FOR YOU! ~

~ RATIONALITY, YOU HAVE BROUGHT ME SADNESS ONLY! ~

~ RATIONALITY, NOW BEGONE! ~

SCRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM!!!!!!!!!!!

Heathen Dawn · 11-18-2002, 11:25 AM

I have been afraid of death since I was eight years old

no chance that a couple of words and logical philosophy could cure such a deep-seated problem

11-18-2002, 12:55 AM	#1
danyboy809 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Az Posts: 6	its easy to succumb to belief; it's hard to remain faithful to death what do you guys think about this idea I just had?

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11-18-2002, 08:08 AM	#3
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Welcome, danyboy809; I think this topic should go in Misc. Religion, because it does not directly address the forum title here. I will say that for people not taught to examine ideas- to think, in short- belief in the religions and social systems they are brought up in is well-nigh automatic. And even those of us who can think clearly and critically are sometimes cowed by the thought of our own extinction, and are tempted to cease our honest skepticism in favor of a belief in some form of life after death. IMO such dishonesty to oneself is a source of worse suffering than the thought of death.

11-18-2002, 10:06 AM	#5
lunachick Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NZ Posts: 7,895	Personally, I have no problem whatsoever with death being the great nothingness at the end of what I hope is a long and good life. To do nothing more than push up daisies sounds like bliss to me. I'm happy to decompose and become soil - and will i be pissed if I ever wind up in any kind of afterlife - I just don't want it. Death is the end, and I'm happy it is. As for belief; Xmas is coming - so I'm going to start believing in Santa right about now.

11-18-2002, 10:16 AM	#6
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Given a choice between the harsh evidential truth and a consoling emotional fiction, I prefer the latter. YIKES!! That speaks volumes. Usually when people are self-deceptive they deceive themselves. You however have seen through your own deception and decided to play along with it anyway. It's like deciding to believe in Santa Claus again. Maybe a little philosophy would help you. This is from Epicurus (341-270 BCE) it's simple logic. "Why should I fear death? If I am, death is not. If death is, I am not. Why should I fear that which cannot exist when I do?"

11-18-2002, 10:19 AM	#7
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	What's that old expression? "If two people say you're sick, lie down." Two people on both sides of the planet just talked about beliveing in Santa in reaction to your post. Time to lie down.

11-18-2002, 11:12 AM	#9
Heathen Dawn Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4,656	~ RATIONALITY, GO AWAY! ~ ~ RATIONALITY, I HAVE NO NEED FOR YOU! ~ ~ RATIONALITY, YOU HAVE BROUGHT ME SADNESS ONLY! ~ ~ RATIONALITY, NOW BEGONE! ~ SCRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM!!!!!!!!!!!

11-18-2002, 11:25 AM	#10
Heathen Dawn Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4,656	I have been afraid of death since I was eight years old no chance that a couple of words and logical philosophy could cure such a deep-seated problem

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