Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Darkside_Spirit · 07-03-2002, 07:57 AM

I'm currently engaged in debate over the scientific accuracy of the Bible and the opposing party has brought up Luke 17:26-36, which reads:

Quote:

"And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

"In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. Remember Lot's wife. Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."

My opponent states that this passage indicates that Jesus knew about different time zones (it mentions both night-time and daytime activities simultaneously). In response, I've argued that the references to both night and day happenings are in parable form, rather than specific predictions. This defence seems to work, but I'd be interested to know whether anyone here has a stronger refutation than arguing ambiguity. Does the above quotation show that Jesus knew about different timezones?

[ July 03, 2002: Message edited by: Darkside_Spirit ]

cloudyphiz · 07-03-2002, 08:23 AM

tell him muslim apologists make the same argument about passages from the qur'an, and the muslim argument is far more convincing (i don't have a specific link, but i'm sure you can find one by searching google.com).

-gary

Kosh · 07-03-2002, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darkside_Spirit:
I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left.

No, but it certainly shows that some homosexuals will go to heaven while others won't.

nogods4me · 07-03-2002, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh:


No, but it certainly shows that some homosexuals will go to heaven while others won't.

But which one? which one? the top or the bottom?

Kosh · 07-03-2002, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by nogods4me:


But which one? which one? the top or the bottom?

Probably the top, since Jesus loves those who give...

Darkside_Spirit · 07-03-2002, 11:12 AM

I noticed that.

But it's supposed to be a serious debate, and mentioning it would just offend the other poster.

Do any of you have any specific points that might be worth bringing up?

Toto · 07-03-2002, 11:35 AM

I don't have the book with me, but Randy Helms in Who Wrote the Bible sees this as a little feminist dig, evidence that a woman wrote Luke - you have two men lazing away in their bed, while the women are working.

Grumpy · 07-03-2002, 01:25 PM

Maybe I'm slow, but is it possible Jesus is referring to an event in a single location which takes several hours to transpire? Rather than refer to a simultaneous event on both the day- and night-sides of the planet, it refers to something happening during the day, then continuing after dark.

Given that such an alternate reading is so obvious, the Luke passage cannot be seen as Jesus telling us he knew about timezones long before the fact. I'd hope that Jesus would have known better than to try to prove something with such an ambiguous statement.

Marduk · 07-03-2002, 02:34 PM

How can two people in the same bed or working in the same field be in two different time zones?
I think this is a simple passage, people will be going about their usual business when wham! some really weird shit comes down.

Grumpy · 07-03-2002, 05:52 PM

Marduck,
I guess the point is that Jesus is supposedly so perceptive that he can tell that, when someone is sleeping in bed at night, elsewhere someone is working in the field during the day.

If Jesus wanted to establish his awareness of timezones (read: the sphericity of the Earth), he should have said, "Lo, when it is day on this side of the world, on the other it is night." It might have blown the minds of his contemporaneous listeners, but it would've scored some major points in modern times. (Or been denounced as a fraud.

)

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07-03-2002, 08:23 AM	#2
cloudyphiz Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: rochester, ny, usa Posts: 658	tell him muslim apologists make the same argument about passages from the qur'an, and the muslim argument is far more convincing (i don't have a specific link, but i'm sure you can find one by searching google.com). -gary

07-03-2002, 11:12 AM	#6
Darkside_Spirit Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 33	I noticed that. But it's supposed to be a serious debate, and mentioning it would just offend the other poster. Do any of you have any specific points that might be worth bringing up?

07-03-2002, 11:35 AM	#7
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I don't have the book with me, but Randy Helms in Who Wrote the Bible sees this as a little feminist dig, evidence that a woman wrote Luke - you have two men lazing away in their bed, while the women are working.

07-03-2002, 01:25 PM	#8
Grumpy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Alaska, USA Posts: 1,535	Maybe I'm slow, but is it possible Jesus is referring to an event in a single location which takes several hours to transpire? Rather than refer to a simultaneous event on both the day- and night-sides of the planet, it refers to something happening during the day, then continuing after dark. Given that such an alternate reading is so obvious, the Luke passage cannot be seen as Jesus telling us he knew about timezones long before the fact. I'd hope that Jesus would have known better than to try to prove something with such an ambiguous statement.

07-03-2002, 02:34 PM	#9
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	How can two people in the same bed or working in the same field be in two different time zones? I think this is a simple passage, people will be going about their usual business when wham! some really weird shit comes down.

07-03-2002, 05:52 PM	#10
Grumpy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Alaska, USA Posts: 1,535	Marduck, I guess the point is that Jesus is supposedly so perceptive that he can tell that, when someone is sleeping in bed at night, elsewhere someone is working in the field during the day. If Jesus wanted to establish his awareness of timezones (read: the sphericity of the Earth), he should have said, "Lo, when it is day on this side of the world, on the other it is night." It might have blown the minds of his contemporaneous listeners, but it would've scored some major points in modern times. (Or been denounced as a fraud. )

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