Freethought & Rationalism Archive

wildernesse · 07-21-2002, 01:18 PM

<a href="http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/072102/ath_20020721034.shtml" target="_blank">In the Living section of Athens' newspaper</a>

What do you think about this? I have read on several sites that this ceremony is not official, yet I found it on the USAF website--it seems official to me. I can't find the history of when it was written, by whom, etc. Info on this would be helpful.

--tiba

Toto · 07-21-2002, 01:53 PM

It's on the official web site:

<a href="http://www.usafa.af.mil/ccp/flagfold.htm" target="_blank">http://www.usafa.af.mil/ccp/flagfold.htm</a>

It must have been written after 1956 because it refers to the newer national motto IGWT.

On the other hand, <a href="http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html" target="_blank">this site</a> says:

Quote:

What is the meaning of the folds in a flag-folding ceremony?
There is no official meaning to the folds, however, the United States Air Force Academy suggests This Ceremony {referring to the Air Force ceremony}

Liquidrage · 07-21-2002, 05:15 PM

I've folded the flag in the USAF for before and let me tell you, no one gave a flying fuck what the folds were supposed to mean.
I had to do retreat about 5 or 6 times in my 4 years and the only thought on anyone's mind was
"flag detail sucks". Neither offically nor unofficially was I ever told anything about the folds meaning anything.

gravitybow · 07-22-2002, 09:23 AM

Having graduated from the Air Force Academy, I cannot ever remember hearing this ceremony recited aloud in any fashion during a flag folding. In fact, until it was brought to my attention on this thread, I never heard of it.

Of course, I graduated twenty years ago. But, unless things have changed in that time, I would wonder how Tracey Coley Ingram of the Athens Banner-Herald would actually know that, "The following words are read on important occasions while the flag is folded:" The ceremony may be suggested, but I have never heard it performed.

Perhaps there are some AFA lurkers here who can update us on this?

Secular Jeff · 07-23-2002, 04:39 PM

I am a former USAF officer and I have been a Civilian employee of the Air Force at Cheyenne Mountain in Colorado Springs for the past 8 and a half years.

The only time I have seen this flag folding ceremony has been at a couple of retirement ceremonies. Yes, officially, it is not official. But the christians like it.

Jeff

-RRH- · 07-23-2002, 05:17 PM

And if the flag folding ceremony predates the Motto change of 1956 and the Pledge change of 1954, then these meanings are just a little revisionist.

The Admiral · 07-24-2002, 05:19 AM

Sounds like somebody here can answer a question for me. I believe that attendence at chapel was mandatory at our military and naval acadamies for quite a long time but no longer is. Am I correct and when was the mandatory part dis-continued?

The Admiral(i wasn't really an admiral)

gravitybow · 07-25-2002, 07:47 AM

Admiral:
I was surprised how difficult it was to find any information at all on mandatory chapel services at military academies. Findlaw and the US Supreme Court sites say nothing about when it was overturned.

The first reference I found came from West Point graduate Walter Lowe, a mormon, who said:

Quote:

A real turn occurred in December of 1972. Prior to that time, attendance at Chapel was manditory. We were classified as "Protestants" and attended services at the main Cadet Chapel. Afterwards, we would attend our own branch meetings. In Dec 1972, the US Supreme Court said that mandatory religious observance at the service academies was unconstitutional. From that time forward, we could concentrate our time and energies in building up our little branch.

One other reference comes from an army chaplain, Col. John W. Brinsfield:

Quote:

In 1969 a court case invalidated the practice of marching midshipmen to chapel at the US Naval Academy. Midshipmen were free to choose whether they would attend religious services. West Point followed suit the next year.

One says the practice ended in 1969-70, the other says 1972. But, finding the actual court decision has been impossible so far.

edited to add:
Attendance was also mandatory at the Air Force Academy prior to the ruling. You could choose to attend Protestant, Catholic, or Jewish services. I suppose that's what the military meant by "freedom of religion."

[ July 25, 2002: Message edited by: gravitybow ]</p>

The Admiral · 07-25-2002, 09:29 AM

Gravitybow;

Thanks for the reply and the information. I had done some searching myself and found nothing.

My own military experience was limited to 2 1/2 years in the navy in WW2, most of which was spent on a Destroyer in the Pacific. I can't remember what we did about the flag but there sure was no ceremony involved. My Destroyer did not have a chaplain. Whether that was the rule or an exception I do not know. I think all the larger ships had them. My actual rank was S1c, twice.

The Admiral

Buffman · 07-25-2002, 11:40 AM

On 21 Jul, I e-mailed the AFA Protocol Office with several questions. I have not received a reply. If I do, and it is of any merit, I will post it. I never heard this so-called "Uniformed Services" Flag Ceremony presented in my 21 year career as an officer. I heard a great many flag lowering ceremonies.

07-21-2002, 01:18 PM	#1
wildernesse Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,578	Air Force Academy Flag Folding? <a href="http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/072102/ath_20020721034.shtml" target="_blank">In the Living section of Athens' newspaper</a> What do you think about this? I have read on several sites that this ceremony is not official, yet I found it on the USAF website--it seems official to me. I can't find the history of when it was written, by whom, etc. Info on this would be helpful. --tiba

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07-21-2002, 05:15 PM	#3
Liquidrage Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tallahassee Posts: 1,301	I've folded the flag in the USAF for before and let me tell you, no one gave a flying fuck what the folds were supposed to mean. I had to do retreat about 5 or 6 times in my 4 years and the only thought on anyone's mind was "flag detail sucks". Neither offically nor unofficially was I ever told anything about the folds meaning anything.

07-22-2002, 09:23 AM	#4
gravitybow Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Washington, NC Posts: 1,696	Having graduated from the Air Force Academy, I cannot ever remember hearing this ceremony recited aloud in any fashion during a flag folding. In fact, until it was brought to my attention on this thread, I never heard of it. Of course, I graduated twenty years ago. But, unless things have changed in that time, I would wonder how Tracey Coley Ingram of the Athens Banner-Herald would actually know that, "The following words are read on important occasions while the flag is folded:" The ceremony may be suggested, but I have never heard it performed. Perhaps there are some AFA lurkers here who can update us on this?

07-23-2002, 04:39 PM	#5
Secular Jeff Honorary Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 609	I am a former USAF officer and I have been a Civilian employee of the Air Force at Cheyenne Mountain in Colorado Springs for the past 8 and a half years. The only time I have seen this flag folding ceremony has been at a couple of retirement ceremonies. Yes, officially, it is not official. But the christians like it. Jeff

07-23-2002, 05:17 PM	#6
-RRH- Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Winnipeg Posts: 2,047	And if the flag folding ceremony predates the Motto change of 1956 and the Pledge change of 1954, then these meanings are just a little revisionist.

07-24-2002, 05:19 AM	#7
The Admiral Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Racine, Wi. USA Posts: 768	Sounds like somebody here can answer a question for me. I believe that attendence at chapel was mandatory at our military and naval acadamies for quite a long time but no longer is. Am I correct and when was the mandatory part dis-continued? The Admiral(i wasn't really an admiral)

07-25-2002, 09:29 AM	#9
The Admiral Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Racine, Wi. USA Posts: 768	Gravitybow; Thanks for the reply and the information. I had done some searching myself and found nothing. My own military experience was limited to 2 1/2 years in the navy in WW2, most of which was spent on a Destroyer in the Pacific. I can't remember what we did about the flag but there sure was no ceremony involved. My Destroyer did not have a chaplain. Whether that was the rule or an exception I do not know. I think all the larger ships had them. My actual rank was S1c, twice. The Admiral

07-25-2002, 11:40 AM	#10
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	On 21 Jul, I e-mailed the AFA Protocol Office with several questions. I have not received a reply. If I do, and it is of any merit, I will post it. I never heard this so-called "Uniformed Services" Flag Ceremony presented in my 21 year career as an officer. I heard a great many flag lowering ceremonies.

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