galiel

Logic Execution:

Since you are new here, and this was only your fourth post, I will take your response as an honest misunderstanding. Perhaps you do not understand the fundamental nature of a discussion board.

This is not a help desk. One does not post a question here and then expect everyone to respond only to you and for you to respond only to them. It is a many-to-many form of conversation.

There were 28 post on this topic prior to my comment. 12 of the last 12 posts prior to my comment were from people other than you.

I was not criticizing any specific point you made. I was responding in general to the direction the conversation was taking, which was to accept the premise that Sagan's beliefs have any relevance to his message. You are surely not oblivious to the common attempt by theists to discredit great nontheistic thinkers by rewriting their histories and claiming that they were either religious, or closet theists, or experienced death-bed conversions.

If I were responding to a specific statement of yours,, I would have quoted the part of your message that was in question, as is customary here. That is the only way that one can keep track of a conversation thread on this board, which does not support threading.

When someone creates a topic in a forum here, it is considered to be an open topic for conversation by all members of the board, not a question and answer session.

Relax.

Logic Execution

Hi galiel, thanks for your help. I posted my query here because it seemed the most appropriate area, although now that I think about it, perhaps it would be better suited under "Science & Skepticism". Also, since the moderators here didn't seem to have a problem with my post, I assumed that the majority didn't mind my imposing upon the board and reaching out as if it were a "help desk".

Yes, of course I didn't expect to become the center of attention because of my humble post. I was--and am--greatly appreciateive of the responses directed to me and to others here. I always get a lot to think about when kind, intelligent, and perspicacious people come together in discussion--it's great.

Although you didn't use quotes, I assumed--and I apologize in advance if my assumption was erroneous--that you were referring to me directly when you wrote, "Tell the guy you are debating to focus on what Sagan did and said, What he contributed to human knowledge and our understanding of the universe, not what he did or did not believe. ", which is why I replied to your post, attempting to clarify the matter. Sorry if I was mistaken in thinking that this was directed specifically at my inquiry. Incidentally, he and I reached an impasse, as neither of us could reach an honest and unequivocal conclusion. Carl's spiritual leanings--if he had any--remain a mystery to me. haha

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank everyone for the information, insight, and perspectives I've gained in reading all of the replies here. I do appreciate an atmosphere of open discussion, and I really didn't expect to have Q & A session. I was just curious to see if anyone else had anything to impart regarding the subject, and I was consequently pleased to read everything germane or unrelated to my original question. It seems that everyone here respects Dr. Sagan, and I've concluded that at this point, I can't say with real certitude whether Sagan was an atheist, a desit, pantheist, etc. (I just couldn't find the right data, I guess. It's probably out there somewhere.)

galiel, I am relaxed, and I'm sorry if I've left you with the impression that I'm not. Having fun online is one of the few times when I really am relaxed, along with reading, playing with my dog, listening to music, and talking with good friends. Once again, thanks for your help.

The Lone Ranger

Theists (and Creationists) have an unfortunate tendency to claim that prominent Skeptics/"Evolutionists" had deathbed conversions.

As if this somehow discredits Atheism or Evolutionary Theory.

Voltaire, Thomas Paine, and Charles Darwin are but three of the more prominent people about whom such false rumors are widely spread. Even to this day, Creationists often claim that Darwin abandoned his theory and became a born-again Christian on his deathbed. Darwin's daughter wrote on the matter, and said that she had been at her father's side at his death, and that he had done no such thing. This doesn't stop the Creationists from making the claim, though.

In Carl Sagan's case, given his prominence, he and his wife were concerned about Theists claiming that he had undergone a deathbed conversion after he was gone. Accordingly, his widow, Ann Druyan took the extraordinary step of issuing a press release shortly after his death stating that she had been at his side right up until the moment of his death, and that he had not undergone a deathbed conversion.

I think the text of the release is in Billions and Billions, but I'd have to check. In any event, I distinctly remember reading it.

Cheers,

Michael

Logic Execution

Hi Michael. Well, thankfully this person is only "guilty" by association. They referred me to an article that quotes Sagan, and then out of quotes, claims that Sagan is avowing his "strongly held deism". I just found that curious because I've not yet read anything in which Carl makes a clear statement of belief as concerns the supernatural. I figured if anyone would know whether or not he had, it would be the folks at infidels.org. Anyway, for the time being, I'm just going to assume that he was probably an atheist, perhaps in the so-called weak sense.

I read about the false Lady Hope story concerning Darwin's alleged recantation of the theory of evolution over at the talkorigins.org archive. Yeah, it is sad that in the emotional pursuit of validating dogma, truth sometimes suffers egregiously--not to mention that science is not subject to arguments from authority. It's funny how you mentioned Voltaire and Paine, because on another board I post on, a zealous theist cited quotes from the two concerning deathbed conversions. I challenged them, since there was no reference, and later learned that they were from a fundamentalist Christian site. It would seem that faith is so dearly important to some that they just have to "prove" it, even at the cost of compromising reality.

I remember what you're talking about in <i>Billions & Billions</i>. Ann Druyan says (I'm paraphrasing here), "Even at the end, when anyone could have been forgiven for turning away from the reality that we were facing, what mattered most to Carl was what is true, not what would make us feel better". I think I actually cried when I got to that part. It was pretty poignant.

Thanks for your input, Michael!

atheist_in_foxhole

Here's the exact quote:

<a href="http://www.2think.org/bab.shtml" target="_blank">More</a>

[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: atheist_in_foxhole ]</p>

Logic Execution

atheist_in_foxhole: Now I'm getting verklemt! Thanks. That's a hilarious name you've got there, by the way.