Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Logic Execution · 10-22-2002, 01:54 PM

Greetings to everyone. I am currently having a conversation with a deist on another board. They claim, through extrapolative interpretation of Carl Sagan's "sermon" (the word actually used on a webpage referenced)at the Missa Gaia in New York, that Dr. Sagan was a deist. I was always under the impression that Carl was an atheist. In reading his work, though, I don't remember coming across any clear statement of belief. Before I get too deeply embroiled in this conversation, could someone point me in the direction of any sort of credible information confirming or contravening the claim that Carl Sagan was a deist? Much thanks in advance.

Ab_Normal · 10-22-2002, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Astronomer Carl Sagan, a declared atheist, has issued an urgent plea for an "uncommon marriage between science and religion" to help solve environmental problems.

From the <a href="http://www.acton.org/ppolicy/editorials/sirico/greening.html" target="_blank">The Greening of American Faith</a> at the website for the Acton Institute for the Study of Religion and Liberty, (I hope) in reference to Sagan's presentation at the Missa Gaia, performed at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine in New York, October 3, 1993. (I'm putting together info from a couple of pages I found via Google.)

(edited to repair UBB code)

(edited again - I had the date all wrong. Should probably give up while I'm ahead.)

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: Ab_Normal ]

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: Ab_Normal ]

Ab_Normal · 10-22-2002, 03:13 PM

Instead of editing that earlier horror of a post one more time, I'll just add another one.

Here's another link to a site that addresses Sagan's speech directly.

<a href="http://tmatt.gospelcom.net/column/1997/01/15/?printable=1" target="_blank">Carl Sagan: TV Evangelist</a> (their title, not mine!) - here's a quote:

Quote:

After the Mass at St. John the Divine, I asked Sagan whether his religious views had evolved in recent years. Was he, perhaps, trying to create a kind of modern deism or some fusion of science and Eastern spirituality?

Sagan said that while some of his images may have changed, he continued to reject the notion of a transcendent God that existed outside the world, universe or cosmos.

"I remain inexorably opposed to any kind of revealed religion and reject any talk of a personal god," said Sagan, while posing for news crews with clergy on the cathedral steps. "But millions of people believe in a god that is not that kind of god." Using the classic image of a divine watchmaker, he added: "Some might say, for example, that there is some kind of force or power in the watch -- a set of laws, perhaps. Then the watch creates itself. I'm more comfortable with that kind of language."

marylandnaturegirl · 10-22-2002, 06:06 PM

I had the great pleasure of attending Carl Sagan's 60th birthday celebration and lecture at Cornell Univeristy.

His speech was the best I have ever heard and it focused on evolution.

During the question and answer session someone asked him "Is there a god?" or "Do you believe in a god".

He refused to come right out and say that he didn't believe in a god, however he said so but in not so many words.

I wish I could remember how he put it but this was back around 1994. Sometime I will try to find if they have an audio tape of the event at cornell university library or archives.

------
By the way if anyone is going to the Godless March you can go here to find out about some additional events that some of us have arranged.

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000760" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000760</a>

you can also check out the once a month Atheist Meet Ups in cities around the world at:
<a href="http://atheists.meetup.com" target="_blank">Atheists Meet Up</a>

Keith Russell · 10-23-2002, 07:59 AM

Greetings:
If the movie Contact is any guage, I would that, IMO, Sagan's being 'diest' is more than possible, and proabably likely.

To leave his main character (at the film's end) (an atheist) with no evidence to support her argument (that she had met alien life) is to put her on the same footing as religionists, who claim we must have 'faith' that their word (unsupported by evidence) is sound.

The only character at the end of the movie who believed her was a theist.

Although I realize that the film was released after Sagan's death, he had a hand in its production, his wife produced it, and it was based on his book.

For the film to put the fictional success of SETI on the same evidential footing as the claims of religious/mystical experience, removed much of the respect I had for Dr. Sagan at that point...

Keith.

[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Keith Russell ]

Ab_Normal · 10-23-2002, 08:03 AM

Re: Contact - it all depends on how much actual control Sagan had over the script. From my limited understanding about how Hollywood works, it is entirely possible that the ending might not have been his decision. I'll see if I can find anything about it. (Google, here I come again!)

Ales · 10-23-2002, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Logic Execution:
...In reading his work, though, I don't remember coming across any clear statement of belief...

"[Sagan's] article in the March 1996 issue of Parade magazine, titled "In the Valley of the Shadow", spoke movingly of his illness and his attitude to death as a non-theist and skeptic":

"I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking.
The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides." ( See <a href="http://www.csicop.org/articles/sagan.html" target="_blank">http://www.csicop.org/articles/sagan.html</a> )

You can find other Sagan's quotations in the Big List of Quotations. (Modern Library->Miscellaneous->Celebrity Atheist List->Related Material on the right side)

Keith Russell · 10-23-2002, 10:41 AM

Ab:

Agreed; Hollywood is a very strange place.

Still, if one is interested in promoting a message via a film, one has the right not to sell away one's control over a project.

If Sagan wanted to ensure creative control, surely (given his fame and stature) he could have kept creative control over the project.

I agree he may not have had a choice about the ending, but I have to ask why--if that is the case--he didn't make sure the choice was his?

Keith.

Ab_Normal · 10-23-2002, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith Russell:
If Sagan wanted to ensure creative control, surely (given his fame and stature) he could have kept creative control over the project.

I agree he may not have had a choice about the ending, but I have to ask why--if that is the case--he didn't make sure the choice was his?

Keith.

I haven't been able to find anything substantive about the script for Contact. (My google-fu is no good.)

However, in the <a href="http://us.imdb.com/Credits?0118884" target="_blank">credits</a>, Sagan and Druyan have story credit, while James V. Hart and Michael Goldenburg have the script credit. Sagan and Druyan were listed as co-producers, but there were also 2 producers, 2 executive producers, and 2 associate producers, so I don't know how much power they wielded on set.

I also think we should consider the fact that Sagan died in December, 1996, and the film was released in July, 1997. Depending on how rapidly his final illness hit and/or how busy he was with teaching and research, he may not have had time or resources to ride herd on Robert Zemeckis and the rest of the producers.

But I can't draw any conclusions until I get more facts!

SanDiegoAtheist · 10-23-2002, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith Russell:
Ab:

Agreed; Hollywood is a very strange place.

Still, if one is interested in promoting a message via a film, one has the right not to sell away one's control over a project.

If Sagan wanted to ensure creative control, surely (given his fame and stature) he could have kept creative control over the project.

I agree he may not have had a choice about the ending, but I have to ask why--if that is the case--he didn't make sure the choice was his?

Keith.

Bear in mind of course, that this was the first movie in a very very long time (ever?) that was highly sympathetic to the atheist/agnostic viewpoint.

If I were Sagan, I would've had them make it, even if they required changes to the ending to make it more 'palatable' to the theist majority.

Anyone here read the book and can comment on whether or not the ending was changed in any significant way?

Cheers,

The San Diego Atheist

10-22-2002, 01:54 PM	#1
Logic Execution Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Northeastern United States Posts: 6	Sagan a deist? Greetings to everyone. I am currently having a conversation with a deist on another board. They claim, through extrapolative interpretation of Carl Sagan's "sermon" (the word actually used on a webpage referenced)at the Missa Gaia in New York, that Dr. Sagan was a deist. I was always under the impression that Carl was an atheist. In reading his work, though, I don't remember coming across any clear statement of belief. Before I get too deeply embroiled in this conversation, could someone point me in the direction of any sort of credible information confirming or contravening the claim that Carl Sagan was a deist? Much thanks in advance.

10-23-2002, 07:59 AM	#5
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: If the movie Contact is any guage, I would that, IMO, Sagan's being 'diest' is more than possible, and proabably likely. To leave his main character (at the film's end) (an atheist) with no evidence to support her argument (that she had met alien life) is to put her on the same footing as religionists, who claim we must have 'faith' that their word (unsupported by evidence) is sound. The only character at the end of the movie who believed her was a theist. Although I realize that the film was released after Sagan's death, he had a hand in its production, his wife produced it, and it was based on his book. For the film to put the fictional success of SETI on the same evidential footing as the claims of religious/mystical experience, removed much of the respect I had for Dr. Sagan at that point... Keith. [ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Keith Russell ]</p>

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10-22-2002, 06:06 PM	#4
marylandnaturegirl Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Washington DC Metro Area Posts: 151	I had the great pleasure of attending Carl Sagan's 60th birthday celebration and lecture at Cornell Univeristy. His speech was the best I have ever heard and it focused on evolution. During the question and answer session someone asked him "Is there a god?" or "Do you believe in a god". He refused to come right out and say that he didn't believe in a god, however he said so but in not so many words. I wish I could remember how he put it but this was back around 1994. Sometime I will try to find if they have an audio tape of the event at cornell university library or archives. ------ By the way if anyone is going to the Godless March you can go here to find out about some additional events that some of us have arranged. <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000760" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000760</a> you can also check out the once a month Atheist Meet Ups in cities around the world at: <a href="http://atheists.meetup.com" target="_blank">Atheists Meet Up</a>

10-23-2002, 08:03 AM	#6
Ab_Normal Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,842	Re: Contact - it all depends on how much actual control Sagan had over the script. From my limited understanding about how Hollywood works, it is entirely possible that the ending might not have been his decision. I'll see if I can find anything about it. (Google, here I come again!)

10-23-2002, 10:41 AM	#8
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Ab: Agreed; Hollywood is a very strange place. Still, if one is interested in promoting a message via a film, one has the right not to sell away one's control over a project. If Sagan wanted to ensure creative control, surely (given his fame and stature) he could have kept creative control over the project. I agree he may not have had a choice about the ending, but I have to ask why--if that is the case--he didn't make sure the choice was his? Keith.

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