Boro Nut

If Paul had never met Jesus in life, how did he know it was Jesus he say? We only have his "Ask them blokes who aren't here, they say it with their own ears" statements as corroboration that he saw anything at all. If Lucifer never thought this one up, he should have done.

Boro Nut

sidewinder

There are 2 (or possibly 3) short descriptions of Paul's vision of Jesus in Acts. The accounts contradict one another too. There is a mention of the risen Jesus appearing to him in 1 Corinthians.

I think Paul probably did have some mystical experience where he believes he saw the risen Jesus. He knew it was Jesus premsumably because Jesus identified himself. I think in Acts Paul heard a voice and asked who it was and the voice responded it was Jesus.

spin

Well, he had fallen over according to that trustworthiest of trustworthy books, Acts, probably hit his head, because he couldn't see though his eyes were open. This is the time for hallucinations.

CX

The way I see it Paul want from being one kind of rabidly religious kook to being another kind of rabidly religious kook. People trade superstitions all the time. Since he never mentions what happened in any of his authentic letters a side from a vague reference to what one assumes was a vision, we really don't know. Suffice it to say he thought he saw the spirit of Jesus telling him to convert. I suspect the preaching to the gentiles bit came after the Jews all treated him like he was nuts. Imagine what would happen if someone like Billy Graham became a Branch Davidian. How many people from his original subculture would accept his testimony and start worshipping David Koresh?

MOJO-JOJO

Paul liked to eat Babylonian Mushrooms....he was jus' trippin'

NOGO

How about the Amanita Muscaria which I believe is local.

Kidding aside.
How about a brain tumour?
Or was Paul schizophrenic?
When people start hearing or seeing things today they are treated with drugs. Back then they were possessed.
Whatever happened to Paul, it converted him to Christianity and the belief that the end of the world was at hand. Perhaps this explains his zeal for his new religion.

[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

Iasion

Gretings all,

Actually, the Amanita Muscaria may in fact be a real part of the mystery...

It appears that early religion did sometimes involve mystical experience brought about by this most magic of mushrooms (no, I have never taken it, and no, its not a major part of my theories, just an odd possible clue).

Two books which are a must read are:
The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross - John Allegro.
Strange Fruit - Clark Heinrich.

See here for Clark's last word on the subject :
<a href="http://serendipity.magnet.ch/wod/lastword.html" target="_blank">http://serendipity.magnet.ch/wod/lastword.html</a>

There is apparently a recipe for cannabis oil in the OT, used to anoint a prophet into a mystical trip - the cannabis is called fragrant cane I think.

Some note the connection between Father Christmas (Santa Claus) and this faerie mushroom, and no, Coca-Cola did not invent Santa Claus, but yes, they played a major part in forming our current version of him.

Also, consider Christmas presents - red and white joyful things found under a pine tree (red and white Amanita Muscaria grows under pine trees).

This is certainly an odd by-way, but its food for thought.

Quentin David Jones

boneyard bill

CX writes:

Actually, it was common for Jews to preach to Gentiles at that time. In fact, Judaism was a missionary religion in those days. The ban on preaching to Gentiles didn't arise until the diaspora. The issues the Paul confronted, the efficacy of the law and the necessity of circumcision were issues in other Jewish sects at that time as well.

NOGO writes:

Here is what Paul says:

II Corinthians 12: 2-5:

2 I knew man in Christ above fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

So Paul does speak of a vision but of words. He doesn't claim an out-of-body experience but admits he doesn't really know. But the fifth verse is very interesting. He equates himself with Christ, but only in that moment. He will glory of that man who was "in Christ," but he will not glory about the ordinary Paul. This sounds to me a lot like the Hindu claim of the awakening of Krishna in every individual.

Moreover, Paul does not say that this experience led him to believe that the end of the world was at hand. Paul definitely believed that Christ would return soon. But that belief was based on the existence of the Apostles. For Paul, Jesus' appearance to him and to the other apostles is what signaled the fact that Jesus would soon return. This makes the most sense if you assume that Jesus has been dead a long time, and that's what many people now believe that Paul believed. Paul doesn't talk of a "second coming." He shows not knowledge or interest in the life or teaching of a recent, earthly Christ.

You can't eliminate the possibility of mushrooms. However, hallucinagenics produce hallucinations, and hallucinations are describable. Paul claims his experience is indescribable. That puts him in the category of the mystics. Well, there seem to have been many Jewish mystic cults at the time. Christianity is the one that survived.

Woodeye

All these answers appear to stem from christian dogmatic thinking.
It seems far more logical to me, that Paul's conversion was a method of infiltration into the kingdom restoration movement. After all, Paul was a policeman for the Romans(I know, I know...high priest). The Romans who ran the prisons, and were the only ones who could give Paul carte blanche to kill without reprocussions. Also, Paul never got in trouble for his defection.
Paul's job of cracking down on the kingdom restoration recruits, was directly linked to stopping the constant zealot rebellion against Roman authority. What better way to nip the kingdom restoration movement in the bud, than to convince the zealots that the ***Kingdom Is Restored***, and it's ***Spiritual***?
Unfortunately, the Jews knew their own history a lot better than the average Roman knew Roman history, and they didn't buy Paul's goofy story for a minute.
Paul had a "new" gospel, that got him kicked out of practically every synagogue in the Roman Empire, while the Jerusalem apostles were welcome in the synagogues. What was the difference between their gospels?
The Jerusalem apostles were spreading the gospel that Jesus came with, namely; "The kingdom is at hand". When Paul received "his" gospel, he immediately went from synagogue to synagogue in Damascus, saying that "Jesus is the messiah".
Strange that this particular gospel only appeared when Paul was "converted", and methinks that Paul protested too much, when he claimed that he was called to the gentiles, since he was getting kicked out of synagogues for preaching "his" gospel, for at least 13 years after his so-called conversion:-)

bob_the_god

I personally reckon that Paul saw what he wanted to see, it is about as reliable historically as Constantine being inspired to put crosses on his soliders shields. People needed to give validity to Pauls teachings which are central to Christian doctrine and it was neseccary.