Dreamer_87

Hello Dangin

That's one thing I don't understand; Islam is a religion, an ideal i.e. not a living thing or physical entity, how is it capable of doing ANYTHING? If this statement were 'MUSLIM MEN'S backward...' then I think it would make more sense.

Sadly it's true that women are treated awfully in muslim countries (Afghanistan under the Taliban's rule being the worst example that comes to mind) but one of the reasons I posted the question was to find out how much people (or atleast II forum user people) know about the religion; have you actually studied the texts? How do you know that the women are being treated that way because of the customs in those countries that might or might not contradict the teachings of Islam?

[qoute]...and the islamic theocracies creation of Mohammed-killbots will eventually lead to a difinitive confrontation. (Why are we, the West, waiting???)[/quote]

Technically the 'Mohammed-killbots' (in and of itself a very offensive term that would lead most people to believe you think ALL muslims are 'kill bots') aren't created by the theocratic governments; the taliban were essentially (from what I know) students from Islamic schools in Pakistan and nearby countries who later 'joined forces' so to speak; they weren't specifically endorsed by any muslim countries from what I know. You then allude to the course of action the 'west' (AKA the 'you's who should be a fightin the 'them's; basicly that's oversimplifying politics) may I ask what do you have in mind? After 9/11 I've heard quite a few americans say america should 'bomb Mecca to get back at those turbin wearing terrorists'. Would that in any way 'fix' the problem? and why are you so eager to see the 'west' and 'east' in a confrontation?

[qoute]Now mind you, this is not an indictment of arab culture. The west owes a huge dept of gratitude to the scholars of the Arab world who kept so much science alive that was lost during the dark ages in Europe.

Arab culture, dance, music, architecture, literature, and many other things are marvelous. It's just conservative islam that has to go.
[/qoute]

I'm glad to know you think so I was relieved because recently I've had a few debates about Islam with some people on yahoo and after a short while the other party resorted to prejudiced ad hominems against arabs, stating that 'had no arabs ever existed the world would be a much better place'.

With that said, though, I still disagree with your last statement; the 'conservative' life style that most arabs lead has saved the area from even more troubles; aids is near non-existant (only after seeing how this disease has decimated Africa will anyone realize how good a thing that is), drug abuse and alcoholism are also very low ect so I think twould be best if you gave an example of a problem caused by conservative Islam, to convince the arabs (and the 1 billion muslims out there, many of whom *aren't* arabs) why it's of no use to them.

Many thanks for taking the time to share your point of view
Nice debating with you, and looking forward to your posts!

Best regards,
Dreamer

Dreamer_87

Hello Crownboy,

That's nothing more than a larger-than-usual generalization; first of all you have to *establish* that Islam as a religion robs muslim young men (So basicly ALL young muslim men are putty in the hands of terrorists? I take much offense to that )of their faculty of critical thinking, you have to provide examples from the teachings themselves rather than rely on everyone's agreement with your statement.

My assumption is that most of the fellow forum users (??) are familiar with Judaism and Christianity and their scriptures ( Because of the very large numbers of christians in Europe and America) but the same is not true of Islam; so basicly you have to give examples of needless violence in the Quran because not that many people (in this forum at least) are familiar with it. And about the 'the lack of outspoken criticsm by Muslims in general on terrorism' what exactly do you know about the reactions of Muslim countries? Saudi Arabia's most influential Mufti (religious scholar) has denounced the attacks of Sept/11 as going against the teachings of Islam and provided scriptual proof to support his argument. From what I know most of the middle eastern countries have done the same - Egypt, Kuwait, the UAE ect ect so what lack of reaction are you talking about?

No offence but I don't think this is relevant to the discussion; The topic is Islam itself, not the actions or political views of its followers. I'll try to address Palestine and the Arabic/muslim point of view of the struggle in this thread but at the moment I don't have the time, sorry bout that.

Didn't you just agree when Dangin dismissed Islam 'backward ass treatment of women' and then said that as a religion it robbed its followers of the faculty of critical thought? I don't see how their claims to moral superiority differ from yours (not to say that I agree with them, though); there's a difference between disagreeing but believing your idea/belief/whatever is still correct and truthful (therefore automatically superior to what is not correct) and between being arrogant and irrational, sadly I think it's arrogance that make some muslims dismiss the whole of the west as inferior when compared to the muslim world in the present.

(Again this is commenting about some Muslims' beliefs rather than the religion itself)

Well according to my knowledge Arabic countries (especially Saudi Arabia) tend to have lower crime rates (especially if compared to America, which apparently has the highest murder rate in the world if the survery's I've read are to be belieed) so Arabic countries (and to a lesser extent muslim countries) have that advantage.

I agree absolutely, but again this is commenting more on some muslim people and some of their beliefs rather than on the religion itself, that is unless you're implying that Islam teaches arrogance and intolerance? If so what leads you to that conclusion? Would you mind sharing the Hadiths or Verses/Chapters in the Quran that make you think so?

Thanks for taking the time to respond,
Looking forward to your posts.

Dreamer,
off to lunch

[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Dreamer_87 ]</p>

Dreamer_87

Now that's fucking sickening


[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Dreamer_87 ]</p>

ImGod

Without muslim people there is no Islam. Observing people is the only way to observe how they apply their interpretation of their book and thereby define their religion. The simple fact that people interpret the books differently is why there are different sects within the muslim, christian, jewish, etc. comunities.

The christian bible and the quran are not pure forms of their religions. They are books.

Dreamer_87

Hello Im,

I disagree; The scriptures outline the ideal practice of the religion and the principles it stands for, what if the actions of the followers contradict them? I agree to some extent, in that people have different interpretations of their texts and as a result of that form different sects but that in no way offers a definition for the religion, mainly because it's too subjective. Let's take Islam for example; one man defines it as Finding peace of mind by Submitting to God's will and law And accepting and trusting his judgement (this is the generally accepted view), whereas another defines it as simply struggling to free the world of 'infidels' ect ect; There are so many contradictions in the definitions that they cannot ALL be correct, especially considering there is (usually) one text that all the beliefs can be compared to.

So in short I believe that the scripture (in this case the Quran) teaches the 'pure form' of the religion, and wether or not the followers' actions are 'correct' or not (from the religious and moral point of view of said religion) is to be governed by the teachings, and NOT vice versa.

Thanks for sharing your POV,
looking forward to your next post!

Dreamer

Dreamer_87

Hi Radcliffe

Thanks for taking the time to check!
Looking forward to your contribution to the debate

Dreamer

Keith Russell

Greetings:

I've seen no evidence that would lead me to conclude that Islam is better or worse than any other religion.

In rejecting reason, all religions establish theselves as hostile and harmful to human beings.

Saying one is 'better' or 'worse' than another, at that point, seems like a waste of time.

Keith.

Feather

Good point, Keith.

dangin

I have, but I think it is because of the three religions we deal with most islam is the youngest. Judaism, and xianity all went through extremely literal, and violent stages, I think Islam is in this now.

To me the key is to increase education and information in the Muslim world. Newsweek ran an article in the last two years about internet access in the Middle East, and it easily averages below 10% of the population, and in countries like Iraq it was less than 1%.

Saudi Arabia has an education system that teaches fairly literal and conservative islam. Most islamic countries still consider it a crime that carries a death sentence to speak out against islam, or muhammed.

These facts speak to a need to modernize the islamic world, and fast. I have said some really tough things about islam, but the one thing that I haven't said is that even if the west destroyed the infrastructure of the middle east, and started true nation building there. We should not make Islam illegal, or try to curb its spread in anyway.

What we should do is force the children to attend 8 hours of real education, real science, real biology, real sexual education, real comparative literature, and even theological literature. They should be exposed to information about Islam that would carry a death sentence currently, (for no other reason than for being a logically sound critique), and they should be exposed to logic and philosophy. I think they teach math OK, but I'm not sure.

Then let their parents take them to Mosque the rest of the day, who cares. The truth will set them free, and the countries and the religion that would spring from this would be mostly moderate and modern.

wdog

Saudi Arabia is what would happen in the US if the very extreme fundies controlled the government. Islam does have very intolerant attitudes, more so than other religions that have a more evolved attitude towards the 'infidels' like me. I think of Islam the same as i do fundamenatial christianity. It is a dangerous crutch for ignorant, brainwashed, and weak people. It should be feared as it seeks to spread itself and control societies the way it controls places like Saudi Arabia. Just look at how muslims behave in places like denmark and britain for a taste of how islam views the world. Islam is very judgemental and disdainful about western culture, a culture that tolerates the presence of islam but is not returned the favor.
Islamic clerics actively teach hatred of the west and isreal. Middle Eastern muslims are still stuck in a paradigm that was valid back at the time of the crusades, they still feel threatened by christianity and the west. Oh and just ask salmon rushdie about the religion of peace.

All in all I think Islam is the worst major religion on the planet. there is hope though, qatar has been under a liberalizing revolution since the mid nineties. women can actually drive there! Once people get a taste of freedom, there hardly is ever going back to the dark ages. saudi is so mad about qatar that they have pulled their ambassador, but qatar is not worried as there is a vast prescence of US military there. once freedom takes hold in qatar, i think saudi arabia will find it harder to not step into the 21st century.