emotional

Richard Dawkins says the universe is neither good nor evil, just blindly, pitilessly indifferent. I can only construe this to mean that the universe is indeed evil. The parable of it is the father who lets his son be beaten by other kids and says, "I was neither good nor evil, just indifferent". Of course this is hogwash, the said father was clearly being evil. So the universe is evil.

While natural evil (the lion eating the lamb) is agonising enough, it is nothing compared to human evil. Have you never seen how little kids, those "innocent" ones, beat each other? Have you never seen the evil looks in their eyes when they do so? It's truly amazing how badness comes naturally to kids, while being good has to be taught. I should know, I was often bullied for no reason at all when I was a kid. Anyway, after looking at the sheer evil of humanity (specially the Holocaust, from which my grandparents fled), I have no sympathy whatsoever with arguments for the "innate goodness of humanity", "divinity of humanity" and so forth. If humanity is inherently good or divine, why does it commit such atrocities?! Some say, "it's our animal nature", but animals don't commit such horrible, intentional evil acts as humans do. Humanity is really a class by itself in doing evil. Animals kill for the sake of eating, while humans are the only animals who kill for the sake of killing.

Now don't get me wrong. I still believe in biological evolution, not in the Biblical story of the Fall, and I think Christianity is itself an evil religion. However, the more I look at humanity, the more I find the doctrine of Total Depravity satisfying. And the Fall theory of natural evil seems to explain a lot. A universe of pain and suffering and struggle and disease and death - this is surely an evil scene, no matter how you slice it.

Your thoughts?

wildernesse

Chimps kill for the sake of killing. Male lions who take over a pride kill all the offspring, so that the lionesses come into heat and they can mate with them.

Animals eating one another isn't evil and neither is this sort of death. What makes it "evil" for humans is because we supposedly have empathy for our fellow humans, and still do bad things even though we know how harmful and hurtful they are.

--tibac

christ-on-a-stick

Hi emotional, I think that this analogy is off because unlike the father, the universe isn't supposed to be responsible for us and watching over/protecting us (because it *is* truly indifferent).
Hmmmm... to be honest I haven't noticed the "evil looks in their eyes" when kids are scrapping... in any case, I don't think that "badness" comes naturally to children so much as selfishness. That seems sort of like a false dichotomy to me. I don't believe or claim that humans are "innately" good - OR "innately" evil. I think that as the most "highly evolved" animals (consciousness-wise) we have the greatest capacity for both good AND evil. I would say it's our animal nature combined with our higher reasoning ability that makes this the case.

Don't you think if animals had higher reasoning abilities (and opposable thumbs! LOL) that they would behave a little bit differently? Think about it... the cows wouldn't let us just herd 'em up and eat 'em, they'd out-smart us!!! And I'm sure that some animals would "go bad" and kill each other, steal, etc. etc.

emotional

It is. You wouldn't like it to happen to yourself. Pain and suffering are evil - that's quite an absolute.



All right, so the universe is indifferent. I didn't say otherwise. Notice what I said: that this indifference is evil. Things are either good or evil. A universe indifferent to the sufferings and pains of its creatures is an evil condition. There is no neutral ground.



They do it with fervour. I should know, because I did. Have you never heard of the condition of schools today? Kids come to school with knives! The evil of so-called "innocent" children is so great that you have to have metal detectors at school entrances.



I believe humans are innately evil, and their goodness is the result of a conscious, uphill struggle against their evil inclination. I have seen nothing to convince me otherwise. Humans don't struggle against their "good inclination" to be evil, only the opposite happens.



Reasoning gives humans the ability to make tools to execute good and evil, but it doesn't explain why they are heavily inclined towards choosing evil instead of good.

I looked at the world and saw pain, suffering, struggle and death. So I said to myself, "What an evil work this is!" To live in constant fear of pain and in knowledge of the certain final blow - this is truly a nightmare! Verily death is my greatest fear. Save me from death, this frightening curse!

Spaz

I don't think that people are inherently good nor evil. When a child is born it doesn't know either, it senses emotions from the parents, etc. and learns from them and other people's actions, the only characteristics that people have naturally are probably the ones that help survival. People are the product of their environment and it depends on what they're taught. I've seen kids that were mean and selfish, and also ones that are rather passive. I've never really seen babies fight so I wouldn't know about that.

Marduk

“Now don't get me wrong. I still believe in biological evolution, not in the Biblical story of the Fall, and I think Christianity is itself an evil religion. However, the more I look at humanity, the more I find the doctrine of Total Depravity satisfying.”

Me to. I think it is our ‘higher’ consciousness & ‘reasoning’ abilities that make us ‘evil’. Our higher consciousness causes our extreme selfishness & self-centeredness and our reason gives us the ability to carry out more of our insane impulses. Doing X pleases ME, fuck everything else. Why do you do this? Because I CAN!!
Mwahahaha! This is why ‘evil’ (pleasing the self at any cost) comes naturally and being ‘good’ (kind to others who are not ME) is hard and must be learned.
I’ve always thought humans were a bad idea and proof enough that there is no benign or intelligent creator, they are dangerous and destructive, avoid them at all costs. (This is why God put Earth so far away in a remote part of the Galaxy )

Infidelettante

Are the people you meet every day evil? The people you work with, are they evil? Is your family evil? In your day to day life how much evil do you encounter? Are there ovens consuming bodies on your block? Are there gas chambers? Are there mass graves? All these things have happened and may happen again. And what will happen again is that some, never enough but some will fight. And some will make sure we never forget. That is the good in us. My point is that you seem to look far and wide for evil at the expense of the good close by. And, if you have ever had a two year old offer you a handful of their food you have seen the good in humanity.

JT

emotional

I open the daily newspaper and what do I see? Killing, murder, cheating, stealing, sorrow, suffering, struggle, disease - DEATH! Honestly, there are days I can't open the newspaper or watch news on TV at all because of the depressing effect it all has on me. The world is so full of sorrow, it's simply unbearable. Sorrow, suffering, pain - and in the midst and at the end of it all, DEATH!

I don't believe death is a natural part of existence. Ever since I first heard of the fact of death, at the age of eight, I've never been able to believe death is something natural. Ever since eight, I've been afraid of death, and atheist though I am, I have prayed for a "cure for death". Death is not natural. Death is an aberration, a disease that needs to be cured. Don't ask me what evidence there is for this theory; I just feel that way, as I have felt since I was a little child.

What is life worth if it ends in death? Nothing. Really NOTHING! A life, as happy as it may be, is made sorrowful and tearful by the existence of death everywhere.

In a world gone wrong, please, O Lord of Life, save me from death!

Shadowy Man

Yeah, because the world would be a much better place if nothing ever died.

Starboy

Like the weather, everyone talks about evil but no one can seem to do anything about it. The idea of evil is a superstitious relic. People who think in such terms limit their responses and understanding of their environment. There are better ways of understanding behavior in this day and age. To call someone evil doesn't prepare you in any way for dealing with that person. If you called them a bully, physically abusive or compulsive then you have something to go on, but evil is one of those first century terms like soul and spirit that everyone uses but that doesn't seem to mean anything. It is time to drop such nonsense on the scrap heap of history along with soul, spirit, demon, god, angel and all the other superstitious claptrap from the first century.

Starboy