Freethought & Rationalism Archive

LinuxPup · 05-28-2002, 12:09 AM

If atheism is true, then freewill does not exist. If free will does not exist, then you have no freedom to think, it's merely particles being re-arranged, and other such physical activities. I just wanted to point that out, because <a href="http://www.infidels.org" target="_blank">www.infidels.org</a> always touts their "freethinking".

Automaton · 05-28-2002, 12:18 AM

I don't see how the failure of God to exist has anything to do with the notion of free will. That's like saying, "God is defined as creating the universe, so if atheism is true, the universe wouldn't exist."

Vorkosigan · 05-28-2002, 12:38 AM

To paraphrase one of the posters here I most admire, how can color exist, if atoms, the particles they are composed of, have no color?

Vorkosigan

David Gould · 05-28-2002, 12:41 AM

What do you mean by free will?

Augustine, for example, thought that no-one had free will with regard to salvation (ie, God decided who was saved and who was damned and humans had no say in it at all by actions, words, thoughts or beliefs) but that all other things were perfectly free.

If atheism is true, there may still be a naturalistic mechanism that grants free will. I personally am a random determinist because I have seen no evidence to suggest otherwise but others disagree with me.

There is also the matter of perspective. If nothing I do can not be predicted even in theory from the current state of events then the illusion of free will can never be shattered definitively. Any inherent randomness will allow free will to remain as a possibility.

My question also would be this: if free will is real would there be a measurable difference between that and random determinism?

I think not. It is merely a philosphical distinction with no real impact on the way the world operates.

Adrian Selby · 05-28-2002, 01:59 AM

How can atheism be true? Do you mean 'If there is no God?'

How does that preclude a soul, or spirit, or whatever other dualistic position seems to offer the comfort of 'real' free will?

Adrian

Goliath · 05-28-2002, 05:50 AM

LinuxPup

Quote:

Originally posted by LinuxPup:
<strong>If atheism is true, then freewill does not exist.</strong>

Unproven Assertion.

Sincerely,

Goliath

MrDarwin · 05-28-2002, 07:09 AM

Seems to me it's the other way around: if an omnipotent, omniscient deity created everything and got the ball rolling, then free will cannot exist because this deity would have known everything that would happen, and how and why--i.e., all the results, direct or indirect, of how he/she/it had created.

This deity would know each and every of our thoughts and actions before we even existed. And the only way we could have thought or done anything other than what we have thought or done, or will think or do, is if this deity had created the universe in such a way that we would do something else. So there is no free will, because our existence and everything we do was determined by the way this deity created everything in the first place.

Edited to sum it up in a single sentence: an omniscient creator and creations with free will are mutually exclusive.

[ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]</p>

Wyrdsmyth · 05-28-2002, 07:23 AM

I agree with MrDarwin. An omniscient creator god poses more of a problem to what we conventially think of as 'free will' than just about anything else I can imagine.

Anyway, 'free will' is such a vague, elusive term... I don't even know if it's worth discussing. It's the Great Greased Pig of Philosophy.

[ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: Wyrdsmyth ]</p>

Jamie_L · 05-28-2002, 07:40 AM

I think naturalism/materialism is being confused with atheism. They don't necessarily go hand-in-hand.

With that being said, I'd concur with the general sentiment that naturalism doesn't preclude free will, and that supernaturalism can preculde free will.

Jamie

GunnerJ · 05-28-2002, 07:51 AM

Might I point out that this whole "argument" is but a fallacy of equivocation? "Free" thought with "free" will?

05-28-2002, 12:09 AM	#1
LinuxPup Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 248	You cannot be a freethinker if atheism is true. If atheism is true, then freewill does not exist. If free will does not exist, then you have no freedom to think, it's merely particles being re-arranged, and other such physical activities. I just wanted to point that out, because <a href="http://www.infidels.org" target="_blank">www.infidels.org</a> always touts their "freethinking".

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05-28-2002, 12:18 AM	#2
Automaton Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 717	I don't see how the failure of God to exist has anything to do with the notion of free will. That's like saying, "God is defined as creating the universe, so if atheism is true, the universe wouldn't exist."

05-28-2002, 12:38 AM	#3
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	To paraphrase one of the posters here I most admire, how can color exist, if atoms, the particles they are composed of, have no color? Vorkosigan

05-28-2002, 12:41 AM	#4
David Gould Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 759	What do you mean by free will? Augustine, for example, thought that no-one had free will with regard to salvation (ie, God decided who was saved and who was damned and humans had no say in it at all by actions, words, thoughts or beliefs) but that all other things were perfectly free. If atheism is true, there may still be a naturalistic mechanism that grants free will. I personally am a random determinist because I have seen no evidence to suggest otherwise but others disagree with me. There is also the matter of perspective. If nothing I do can not be predicted even in theory from the current state of events then the illusion of free will can never be shattered definitively. Any inherent randomness will allow free will to remain as a possibility. My question also would be this: if free will is real would there be a measurable difference between that and random determinism? I think not. It is merely a philosphical distinction with no real impact on the way the world operates.

05-28-2002, 01:59 AM	#5
Adrian Selby Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Farnham, UK Posts: 859	How can atheism be true? Do you mean 'If there is no God?' How does that preclude a soul, or spirit, or whatever other dualistic position seems to offer the comfort of 'real' free will? Adrian

05-28-2002, 07:09 AM	#7
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	Seems to me it's the other way around: if an omnipotent, omniscient deity created everything and got the ball rolling, then free will cannot exist because this deity would have known everything that would happen, and how and why--i.e., all the results, direct or indirect, of how he/she/it had created. This deity would know each and every of our thoughts and actions before we even existed. And the only way we could have thought or done anything other than what we have thought or done, or will think or do, is if this deity had created the universe in such a way that we would do something else. So there is no free will, because our existence and everything we do was determined by the way this deity created everything in the first place. Edited to sum it up in a single sentence: an omniscient creator and creations with free will are mutually exclusive. [ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]</p>

05-28-2002, 07:23 AM	#8
Wyrdsmyth Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Sarver, PA, USA Posts: 920	I agree with MrDarwin. An omniscient creator god poses more of a problem to what we conventially think of as 'free will' than just about anything else I can imagine. Anyway, 'free will' is such a vague, elusive term... I don't even know if it's worth discussing. It's the Great Greased Pig of Philosophy. [ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: Wyrdsmyth ]</p>

05-28-2002, 07:40 AM	#9
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	I think naturalism/materialism is being confused with atheism. They don't necessarily go hand-in-hand. With that being said, I'd concur with the general sentiment that naturalism doesn't preclude free will, and that supernaturalism can preculde free will. Jamie

05-28-2002, 07:51 AM	#10
GunnerJ Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: a place where i can list whatever location i want Posts: 4,871	Might I point out that this whole "argument" is but a fallacy of equivocation? "Free" thought with "free" will?

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