Bede

... unless, it seems, you are a member of the Spanish Inquisition.

Following up some comments on an earlier thread I have found some scholarly comment on the Inquisition vis a vis Witch trials.

This is Brian Levack in "The Witch hunt in Early Modern Europe" p226:

"By the time the European witch hunt began, however, inquisitors had produced a large body of cautionary literature, and the two early modern institutions that succeeded the medieval inquisition - the Spanish and Roman Inquisitions - demonstrated exceptional concern for proceedual propriety. Indeed the Roman Holy Office has been referred to as a 'pioneer in judicial reform'. Unlike many secular courts, it made provision for legal councel; it furnished the defendent with copy of the charges and evidence against him; and it attached very little weight to the testimony of a suspected witch against her alleged confederates. One of the most noteworthy features of both Spanish and Roman Inquisitiorial proceedure was that torture was very rarely employed."

Some notes to put this in context:

- Levack considers the medieval inquisitors to have been, well, medieval.

- Large scale witch hunts often took place when excessive torture was used to both implant the learned ideas about diabolism into the accused and furnish lists of further suspects to allow the hunt to propergate.

- Most witch executions took place in secular jurisdictions in Germany and Switzerland.

- The Inquisitions did prosecute all forms of magic rather than just witchcraft, but the penalties were mild - penitential rather than retributional.

- The Inquisitions did not have an objection to torture in principle but rather insisted it was a last resort when there was plenty of evidence already. Even then, the proceedures had to be followed to prevent lasting injury or prolonged suffering. Effectively, a utilitarian ethic.

- Iberia and Italy outside the Holy Roman Empire account for less than 1% of witch executions and most of these appear to have been secular trials.

For the record, I do not support the use of torture or executions under any circumstances, in case a certain someone feels that my personal opinions impinge on the historical record.

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

Family Man

But isn't it also true that Catholic Inquisitions were primarily directed not at witches but at enforcing the Catholic faith. For example, against people of other faiths, such as Jews? If so, why would this result be surprising?

Bede

Family man,

True enough, although the Inquisition followed procedure correctly with heretics as well as witches. The result,as you say, is surprising in that most people think that the Inquisition played a central part in witch hunting.

B

luvluv

Bede, your homepage is outstanding!

Family Man

Great, so they followed procedure while they oppressed people for what they chose to believe. You'll excuse me if I'm less than impressed.

Amos

Freedom of religion is not universally accepted all over the world. It was not the norm then and that should be their right to enforce. This is especially true if we still teach that the mythology is for the survival and prosperity of the tribe.

Fr.Andrew

(Bede): "...most people think that the Inquisition played a central part in witch hunting."
(Fr Andrew): You're overly defensive with respect to Catholicism, perhaps. Most people think that religion played a central part in witch hunting.
And most people are correct.

Family Man

As far as I can tell, Bede's thing has been that the Catholic Church played a minor role in the persecution of witches. Technically, he is correct. However, the Christian belief system played a huge role in the witch hunt, even if it was primarily a Protestant activity. That is a huge distinction for Bede I suspect, but a minor one for us religious skeptics.

The Catholic church has had its own share of outrages over the centuries. Whether it burned many witches or not is not very important.

George W.

Bede, the Inquisition played a role in witch hunting, but as you say they were more preoccupied with rooting out heretics, eliminating people forcibly converted to Christianity in Spain (Jews and Muslims), it was more concerned with thinkers who asked too many questions about the real world at odds with biblical superstiton (flat 60 century old earth in center of universe), infidels, and especially any who doubted the very existence of God. However many such people were murdered by the Catholic Christian Church starting in 364 AD to the time of the formation of the Inquistion in the High Middle Ages. The Christian Roman Empire murdered thousands of Pagans, including the famous female scientist/philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria (horrid torture and dismemberment with disembowelment), and the 4000 pagan people of Gaza murdered by Roman troops at the request of the local bishop because the Gazans refused to convert.

As to Catholicism being the cause of the Witch Hunts, remember that all western Christianity is Catholicism. Catholicism was started by Athanasius and Augustine's teachings and require belief in a Trinity God (F, S, HS), a god-human son of god, born of a virgin, for the purpose of bloody sacrifice, to then enter hell (Hell I don't know why?), and arise in 35 hours to fulfill a prophesy that isn't really there. I was really a plagiarism of Mithraism. But Constantine a follower of Sol Invictus, the Sun Cult, for political reasons wanted to merge Mithraism the largest religion with Chrsitianity the fastest growing cult. The three way merger produced Catholicism. Older forms of Christianity, Arianism, Nararenes, and Ebionites were eventually persecuted out of existence.

Catholicism became synonymous with Christianity. The East-West Schism produced Orthodox Catholisicm in the East, Roman Catholicism in the west. In the protestant reformation, Protestant Catholisicm separated from Roman Catholicism each still retaining the essential catholic beliefs. As protestantism split into a thousand smaller cults each maintained its Catholicism. The only exceptions of Christians who are not Catholic are Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, and of course Quakers, Deists, and Unitarians. Protestants likely murdered the most women in the name of witchcraft than Catholics. For their relative numbers, the Calvinists may have been the most bloody and homicidal of all Christian Cults in history.

George W.
<img src=http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=471126>

Bede

Hi George,

You are new here, so a word of warning. Make sure you have properly researched your posts and know what you are talking about. You post suggests some gaps in your knowledge about church history or the history of science.

Here are some of the mistakes in your post:

- Witch hunts started in the late 15th century while the Inquisition showed no interest in Copernicus until 1600 and even then did not ban it until the 1630s by which time the witch hunts were well past their peak.

- The Inquisition had no interest in eliminating people. It never pronounced a capital sentence for a first offence.

- The church has never at any time taken the view that the earth is flat.

- The church indulged in very little heretic hunting in the Dark Ages and Early Middle Ages. Heretic hunting did not really start until the Cathar crisis of the thirteenth century.

- Do you have a source for the Gaza story? I am aware of some hagiography about Gaza which is not considered reliable by historians. Perhaps you know better.

- While Hypatia was indeed murdered by a Christian mob we do not know why. Socrates Scholasticus, the Christian chronicler who recorded the event, was disgusted and we also have fawning letters from one of her Christian pupils called Cynesius of Cyrene. It would therefore be false to say she was killed by the Church or simply because she was a pagan.

- The moderator here, CX, has shown that the idea the Mithraism was plagiarised by Christians directly cannot be supported by the evidence.

- All historians now consider Constantine’s conversion to Christianity to be sincere although he continued to allow limited support for official pagan cults for, as you say, political reasons. Despite his conversion, Constantine was not a very pleasant piece of work.

- The Calvinists of Geneva had the lowest execution rate of witches of the areas so far closely studied.

- Alas, most Protestants are not Catholics (this is the weirdest part of your post) although I would certainly consider them Christians.

- Catholic states in Germany (where the Inquisition was not active) executed witches at about the same rate as Protestants. That the witch hunt was primarily a Protestant thing is a myth.

I am afraid that with some much error any substantial point you may have made is totally lost. Also, avoid emotive language is historical discussion - you should use facts rather than rhetoric to make your points.

Yours

Bede

Bede’s Library – faith and reason

PS: Luvluv, thanks!