Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Opera Nut · 05-26-2003, 03:23 PM

I have heard of Catholic Charismatic congregations.

I assume that charismatic means holy rollers, speaking in tongues and all that fundie stuff.

Opera Nut · 05-26-2003, 03:27 PM

"The protestant people burning age is ahead of us"

It's happened already. I'm sure that the English monarchs fried some catholics in their day after Henry VIII established the Anglican church cuz he wanted a divorce.

Actually John Calvin enticed Michael Servetus of Transylvania to Geneva for a debate and then barbecued his ass at the stake with green wood to maximize the slow burning and hence the suffering. Servetus was writing letters to Calvin insisting on Universal Salvation (Universalism) and One God (Unitarianism) and it pissed Calvin off. So Calvin barbecued the first U-U.

AJ113 · 05-26-2003, 03:28 PM

It does indeed. My dad is involved in all of that stuff.

sullster · 05-27-2003, 04:25 AM

The point was made that the RC in the US has become "fundamentalised", and mirror many of the fundies' ideas. I agree and feel that this is another reason for the decline of the church in the USA, and thus their power to counter-balance the fundies is weakened.

The Catholic Church in the USA has always been a minority in a sea of Protestantism. It can not help but be influenced by the predominant culture which is protestant. Yet, in recent decades it has joined forces with the fundamentalist moralistic crusaders and has thus weakened itself by blending with them.

The Catholic Church makes a big mistake if they think that by joining the fundies in moral crusades, they will be accepted by them. The Fundies will never see Catholicism as anything but a heresy and a superstitious error.

Furthermore, as the Church becomes more "fundamentalised", it obscures the differences between itself and the fundies. This can lead to some of its flock desiring to go and join the "real thing". The RC Church is in very deep trouble and loosing out.

Pyrrho · 05-27-2003, 11:42 AM

There are a couple of different things to say. First, the members of the Catholic Church do not all agree with each other. There are many who want the church to change its position on any number of issues, and, of course, there are those who want those things to be kept as they are. (There are groups of Catholics who support abortion and others who support gay rights. Obviously, there are many Catholics who don't support either of these ideas.)

Second, the Catholic Church has wide and varied history. Even obnoxious groups, like the Southern Baptists (which is a separate denomination from "Baptist") haven't killed people in the name of religion the way that Catholics have. Besides, many Catholics are already fundamentalists. SAINT Augustine is a good example of this. He is a Catholic Saint, and still exerts a powerful influence on Christian theology. I suppose some of you imagine that there are no Augustinian Catholics these days? Maybe some of you only know liberal Catholics, but not everyone has had that experience. Here is a pretty extreme example (emphasis added):

Quote:

Lest anyone object that the example of the child being burned alive in the oven is too �exotic,� and therefore somehow lacking in validity regarding this matter of faith, consider an example already mentioned in passing: The Inquisition. As the Inquisition, or Holy Office, lasted, in its full splendor and glory, for several hundred years, it cannot be justly regarded as too �exotic� or an aberration. Given the faith that one has an immortal soul that will suffer eternal torment if one does not believe, and the relative unimportance of this life when compared with eternity, it follows that doing anything to get people to believe is doing them a favor. Thus, if torture will get them to believe, then torturing them is doing them a favor. Or, if one believes that by torturing �heretics,� more people will pretend to believe, which, as no one voices a contrary opinion, will encourage more people to believe, then one may torture to save some souls, even if the ones being tortured cannot be �saved.� (Incidentally, such a belief seems plausible from the evidence of history.) And, in any case, such heretics, according to the faithful, deserve to suffer anyway, so that no wrong is done in using them in such a manner. After all, if they did not deserve to suffer, God would not damn them to Hell for eternal punishment. (Notice that the parts of this requiring faith can form a genuine option that cannot by their nature be decided on intellectual grounds, so that this is permitted by James� thesis.) The Inquisitors were simply acting upon their faith�as, indeed, all who have faith act upon it. Their activities follow quite naturally and rationally from such beliefs as had been acquired by faith, and the only way to stop such action is either by changing their beliefs or by taking away their power to act with impunity. The latter of these two, historically, is what happened, and explains why its ruling body, the Congregation of the Holy Office, has had its activities significantly curtailed, even though its basic objective remains the same�the suppression of heresy�which is now primarily effected, insofar as it is effected, by banning works of literature and art. When I was in graduate school, a fellow student stated, with apparent sincerity, that he believed that the Inquisition was good. And, indeed, the only way to disagree with him is to reject, at least in part, the faith of the Inquisitors. �Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.�

From:

http://ajburger.homestead.com/files/book.htm

And you people want the Catholic Church to continue?

Opera Nut · 05-27-2003, 04:40 PM

Yep that's a great quote from Blaise Pascal, who was a Catholic but also was a mathematician who investigated odds and gambling, and invented the roulette wheel.

I have no idea why anyone would consider an 83 year old celibate man to be any kind of a spiritual guide to life, especially in family matters and how many kids I should have.

These men that tell women what to do with their bodies or how many kids to have, have NO IDEA what pregnancy and childbirth do to our bodies, or the medical dangers of too many children too close together, or any of that stuff.

Rational BAC · 05-27-2003, 11:12 PM

I guess you all know that the Inquisition happened an AWFUL long time ago.

It is not like any Christian (Catholics included) today believes anything even close to the same way that the Inquisitors did. Give it up. Happened a long time ago. As did the Crusades. Time goes on.

Christianity has learned and transformed for the better through the ages.

(I wonder sometimes about Islam though. --from current events)

MattR · 05-28-2003, 04:19 AM

Just watch EWTN for a few days, for any doubts that RCC is less of a danger than fundy Christians.

keyser_soze · 05-28-2003, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MattR
Just watch EWTN for a few days, for any doubts that RCC is less of a danger than fundy Christians.

I watch it daily. Good stuff.

sullster · 05-28-2003, 03:16 PM

What has been done by Catholics and Catholicism in its history is an appalling record of murder and terror, but as Rational BAC wisely points out, it happened a long time ago. There will be no burnings at the stake or inquisitors pulling out your arms from their sockets these days.

I will reiterate my idea that for all of Catholicism's idiocies, on the whole it seems to produce people who are for the most part less robotically theistic than are the fundies. For the sake of this alone, I fear the decline of the Catholic church in the USA. Its decline could lead to an increase of fundamentalism. Fundamentalism is now more dangerous to a secular society than is Catholicism.

Furthermore, if Catholicism absorbs more fundamentalist thinking, then it will also produce people who are more of the same.

We atheist/agnostic/secularist types can gain more breathing room by having mutually antagonistic religions around us. This is a further benefit of having a strong and anti-fundy Catholic church around.

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05-26-2003, 03:23 PM	#11
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	I have heard of Catholic Charismatic congregations. I assume that charismatic means holy rollers, speaking in tongues and all that fundie stuff.

05-26-2003, 03:27 PM	#12
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	"The protestant people burning age is ahead of us" It's happened already. I'm sure that the English monarchs fried some catholics in their day after Henry VIII established the Anglican church cuz he wanted a divorce. Actually John Calvin enticed Michael Servetus of Transylvania to Geneva for a debate and then barbecued his ass at the stake with green wood to maximize the slow burning and hence the suffering. Servetus was writing letters to Calvin insisting on Universal Salvation (Universalism) and One God (Unitarianism) and it pissed Calvin off. So Calvin barbecued the first U-U.

05-26-2003, 03:28 PM	#13
AJ113 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Hull UK Posts: 854	It does indeed. My dad is involved in all of that stuff.

05-27-2003, 04:25 AM	#14
sullster Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: North of Boston Posts: 1,392	The point was made that the RC in the US has become "fundamentalised", and mirror many of the fundies' ideas. I agree and feel that this is another reason for the decline of the church in the USA, and thus their power to counter-balance the fundies is weakened. The Catholic Church in the USA has always been a minority in a sea of Protestantism. It can not help but be influenced by the predominant culture which is protestant. Yet, in recent decades it has joined forces with the fundamentalist moralistic crusaders and has thus weakened itself by blending with them. The Catholic Church makes a big mistake if they think that by joining the fundies in moral crusades, they will be accepted by them. The Fundies will never see Catholicism as anything but a heresy and a superstitious error. Furthermore, as the Church becomes more "fundamentalised", it obscures the differences between itself and the fundies. This can lead to some of its flock desiring to go and join the "real thing". The RC Church is in very deep trouble and loosing out.

05-27-2003, 04:40 PM	#16
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	Yep that's a great quote from Blaise Pascal, who was a Catholic but also was a mathematician who investigated odds and gambling, and invented the roulette wheel. I have no idea why anyone would consider an 83 year old celibate man to be any kind of a spiritual guide to life, especially in family matters and how many kids I should have. These men that tell women what to do with their bodies or how many kids to have, have NO IDEA what pregnancy and childbirth do to our bodies, or the medical dangers of too many children too close together, or any of that stuff.

05-27-2003, 11:12 PM	#17
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	I guess you all know that the Inquisition happened an AWFUL long time ago. It is not like any Christian (Catholics included) today believes anything even close to the same way that the Inquisitors did. Give it up. Happened a long time ago. As did the Crusades. Time goes on. Christianity has learned and transformed for the better through the ages. (I wonder sometimes about Islam though. --from current events)

05-28-2003, 04:19 AM	#18
MattR Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: PA Posts: 46	Just watch EWTN for a few days, for any doubts that RCC is less of a danger than fundy Christians.

05-28-2003, 03:16 PM	#20
sullster Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: North of Boston Posts: 1,392	What has been done by Catholics and Catholicism in its history is an appalling record of murder and terror, but as Rational BAC wisely points out, it happened a long time ago. There will be no burnings at the stake or inquisitors pulling out your arms from their sockets these days. I will reiterate my idea that for all of Catholicism's idiocies, on the whole it seems to produce people who are for the most part less robotically theistic than are the fundies. For the sake of this alone, I fear the decline of the Catholic church in the USA. Its decline could lead to an increase of fundamentalism. Fundamentalism is now more dangerous to a secular society than is Catholicism. Furthermore, if Catholicism absorbs more fundamentalist thinking, then it will also produce people who are more of the same. We atheist/agnostic/secularist types can gain more breathing room by having mutually antagonistic religions around us. This is a further benefit of having a strong and anti-fundy Catholic church around.

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