sullster

The Catholic Church in the USA is in deep trouble. It is reeling from the consequences of the priest abuse scandal. It is torn by internal dissension from the disagreements between conservatives and liberals. It is not getting new young priests to join and very many Catholics no longer are practising.

For us atheist/agnostics, this would seem a good thing. Yet I want to claim that it is not. The religious impulse is something that seems part of the human brain's hardwiring and very many are attracted to it.

All the sects of the christian religion are with us and intertwined with our society whether we like it or not. For me, the Protestant Fundamentalists pose the greatest danger to free thought, reason, science and the rights of non-believers than do the Catholics. Catholic priests are well educated and Catholic schools and universities advocate learning and do include science, even evolution.

Catholicism is full of ridiculous other-worldly irrational nonsense and rituals which make us laugh out loud. But, if Catholicism falls away, many of its believers could be drawn into the clutches of absolutist fundamentalism. The traditions of decent education found in Catholic schools could be replaced by fundy bible schools in many areas. We free thinkers could find ourselves confronting more fundamentalism than ever.

Rational BAC

Possibly Sull----

But most all the Catholics I have encountered are serious skeptics anyway and just go through the motions of Catholicism. (Half my extended family is Catholic--so I know a little of what I speak).

I seriously doubt that those very skeptical Catholics will suddenly become devout, unquestioning, born again, literalist Fundies.

AJ113

The Catholic church's sirtuation in the USA was one of the factors in my deconversion.

I was drawn into the clutches of atheism

Seriously, I don't think it matters too much which arm of christianity people side with. They're all sadly mistaken in their beliefs and, should you ever to attempt to show them the error in their beliefs, their resolve will probably be strengthened.

Ultimately, all you can do is live your life and forget about the sheep.

sullster

Thanks for your replies.

I agree that skeptical Catholics will never become fundies but deeply religious ones can. Three members of my wife's Catholic family have become raging fundies. Today's generations have not experienced the anti-Catholicism of the past and those who seek religious succor, could go fundy.

My bigger point is not only based on the conversion of Catholics to fundyism. It is that a weakened Catholic church in the USA will not be strong enough to counter its ancient protestant enemy. Don't forget, when religious sects are antagonistic, it does further the rise of skepticism and free thought. When different groups claim absolute "truth", then one or all are incorrect. Catholicism can run as a block to fundyism in fundyism's own theistic territory, leaving us skeptics more freedom.

Monkeybot

Most Catholics I know (on my mom's side of the family, anyway, I realize it's not scientific here) would be horrified at the thought of converting to Protestantism, especially a bible-thumping fundy kind. My mother once told me she'd rather see me convert to Judaism than any form of Protestant. (She wasn't counting on atheism, though!)

I think for my mom's side of the family, anyway, Catholics are seen as "us" and Protestants as "them," probably as a holdover from the whole ancestors-immigrating-from-Ireland thing. More important than ancestry, though, was simple geography. Mom grew up in a mostly Catholic neighborhood, went to a Catholic school, etc. etc. Religion is such a social glue that for her, converting to Protestantism wouldn't have merely been switching religions, it would be deliberately excluding oneself from all those religious functions that also serve as social events. (Midnight Mass, Easter brunch, etc. etc.)

In all my 20 years of visiting my mom's side of the family, nobody has ever asked me about my personal relationship with Jesus, expressed any interest in my opinions on theology, expressed any of their own opinions on theology, or even had a serious, in-depth conversation about religion with me. Ever. For all I know, every single one of us is an atheist just going through the motions.

I think a conversion to some kind of fundamentalism would be received as badly as strong atheism. Both would sort of imply a deliberate self-exclusion fromt he group, and I think both would be seen as arrogant. I think it would be seen as attention-grabbing, and the reaction would most likely be something along the lines of "What, you think you're better than everyone else?"

OK, I realise I've rambled here, but I guess what I'm saying is that I think the social function of religion can often override any theological or philosophical objections to it. I doubt Catholicism will be picking up many converts in the future, but hey, do they need to? They've already got the anti-birth control stance

keyser_soze

Knowing as many catholics as I do, I mourn it's loss...as it tends to have a more practical consituency(relax, I said more....anything beats the baptists and COC)...Yes, it is more a loss for us that many assume. At least they played by the rules, their lessons learned centuries ago. The protestant people burning age is still ahead of us, and they show all the same tendencies that the catholic church exhibited centuries ago...the same intolerance, the same need to control. They are pretty relaxed these days. A shame.

Toto

If you could go back to the Catholic church of the 60's, I might agree with you. But the present Catholic church under J2P2 is fundamentalizing itself, and has practically made itself an arm of the Republican Party. They won't do anything as lower class as snake handling or teaching Creationism, but their sexual politics remain in the middle ages.

keyser_soze

Actually, I was kind of hoping that the next vicar would be a little more relaxed, and I feel that a hundred, hundred twenty years max will see the abolition of that ridiculous stage. Unfortunately, they may not last that long. Of course we've been saying that for nearly 700 years....

sullster

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Monkeybot


In all my 20 years of visiting my mom's side of the family, nobody has ever asked me about my personal relationship with Jesus, expressed any interest in my opinions on theology, expressed any of their own opinions on theology, or even had a serious, in-depth conversation about religion with me. Ever.


Monkeybot,
I concur with you observations about Catholics. I have never met one who asked me about my religious beliefs or lack of. Never has a Catholic made me uncomfortable by bringing up their religion. Obviously, there are obnoxious zealot Catholics out there, but I have not had the misfortune of meeting one.

My contact with Fundies is a large contrast. They are invariably condescending after they rudely bring religion up in conversation which wasn't about religion in the first place.

I hate to tell you, but my Catholic raised in-laws are now robotic fundies. They also criticise Catholicism and actually have claimed that their Catholic relatives are hell-bound. I actually admire the fierce and stoic Catholicism of my mother-in-law, when she dismisses her now fundy children.

Catholicism, for all its theistic nonsense, seems to produce more normal people and thus I feel that it is a block to fundyism among religiously minded people.

Opera Nut

I have an aunt who is a Christian Science practitioner who hates Catholics.

I personally would not go to a catholic hospital, nor would I take my dog or anyone else to the local catholic hospital. I have heard too many horror stories about it.