Derec

So how are these "prophecies" any different than educated guesses that these "prophets" could have done based on political and other trends that were available to them at that time?

What you have described are simple predictions and people engage in it all the time without requiring or claiming divine inspiration.

UMoC

CJD

UglyMan wrote: "So how are these "prophecies" any different than educated guesses that these "prophets" could have done based on political and other trends that were available to them at that time?"

No different, really. But you must keep in mind that the people of Israel, to whom the prophets were speaking, believed in a real God, that really moved ("thus saith the Lord, . . ."). Prophets were emissaries from the heavenly courts. The people knew well enough that if the demanded stipulations were (or were not) met, then the word of the prophet would come to pass accordingly. Also, don't forget that many times the prophets spoke of curses that would come as a result of non-repentance. Exile being the ultimate curse for a people whose ultimate destiny was the Land (and subsequently the Earth), I'd say those predictions were fulfilled. Call them educated guesses, if you like. It makes no difference since the OT prophecies are not a valid argument for Scriptural inspiration.

CJD

quit making westerners out of ancient near easterners.

Calzaer

Including the prophecies about a messiah? Well hot damn! Jesus WAS a heretic!

wordsmyth

Deuteronomy 18
20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?"
22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Conveniently enough God has provided an excuse for failed prophecies. Any prophecy which fails to obtain can simply be blamed on the prophet and any prophecy that does obtain God can take credit for. Not only are failed prophecies blamed on the prophet, but God orders them put to death to cover his tracks.

If we can't trust the alleged divine inspiration of prophets, how can we be expected to trust the rest of the bible which is also an alleged divine inspiration. With prophecies we can at least wait until they are supposed to obtain to find out if they are true, but that method of verification isn't available with the rest of the bible.

Apikorus

<TIC>
Deut 18:20 seems to accurately fortell Jesus' aberrant ministry and swift death.
</TIC>

CJD

Wordsmyth, I encourage you to actually read the Tanak as a literary unit, instead of picking and choosing. Consider the following from Jeremiah 18:1–10: "The Lord said to Jeremiah: “Go down at once to the potter’s house. I will speak to you further there.” So I went down to the potter’s house and found him working at his wheel. Now and then there would be something wrong with the pot he was molding from the clay with his hands. Then he would rework the clay into another pot as he saw fit. Then the Lord said to me, “I, the Lord, say, ‘O nation of Israel, can I not deal with you as this potter deals with the clay? In my hands, you, O nation of Israel, are just like the clay in this potter’s hand.’ There are times, Jeremiah, when I threaten to uproot, tear down, and destroy a nation or a kingdom. But if that nation that I threatened stops doing wrong, I will forgo the destruction I intended to do to it. And there are times when I promise to build up and establish a nation or a kingdom. But if that nation does what displeases me and does not obey me, then I will forgo the good I promised to do to it."

You see, Wordsmyth, according to the text, God has intentions for prophecies. The point of them is not some static use where you have prophets walking around uttering predictions, etc. Until you begin to even remotely understand the neve'im and their function as covenant emissaries, why not be open to a more plausible understanding of the text that the one you think you have? I'm dealing with the text, you're stuck on yourself (You wrote: "If we can't trust the alleged divine inspiration of prophets, how can we be expected to trust the rest of the bible which is also an alleged divine inspiration. With prophecies we can . . .). Unless this very last question is sincere, I will never waste my time answering it. Try and read the text and interpret for what it is. Then maybe you'll have something significant to add. The Deut. text is beside the point. It refers to the prophets' hearers and their need to discern the intentions of the prophet so they can determine the validity or the falsity of the prophet him/herself.

For (hopefully) the last time, I am not arguing for the divine inspiration of the text, that would be a huge waste of my time. I am simply arguing for someone out there to read the text responsibly, and offer a learned, lit. crit. account of what is going on in the text. Everything else you have to say reminds me of Elvis on stage in Las Vegas, where he quipped that famous line, "Blah, blah, blah, plus tax." Wake up. It's not about you at all. I could care less if you take the Scriptures to be inspired or not (given your beliefs—whatever they are). I only care if you propose an idiotic reading of the text and then presume to fault me for it. I am not preaching here. I am merely showing you, truth be known, how a professional in this field deals with the text.

Apikorus, we both know you are capable of more than one-line zingers. Have I, in your opinion, misrepresented the neve'im in this thread?


CJD

Apikorus

CJD, I'm generally sympathetic to your attempts to read in context, although ultimately I think your interpretation is still slaved to your confessional stance. At any rate, my reading of "prophecy" is that the various prophetic authors were universally concerned with their own times or the proximate future. Since noone can predict the future with any certainty, it is hardly surprising to find that many of these predictions were historically inaccurate.

Later exegetical traditions which retroject Jesus, or the Righteous Teacher from Qumran, et al. into the Hebrew Bible are not true to the plain sense of the text.

My previous tongue-in-cheek remark was intended to show that one can apply biblical "prophecy" in various directions.

CJD

Apikorus wrote: "CJD, I'm generally sympathetic to your attempts to read in context . . ."

* Thanks. Other atheists in this forum should take note. Maybe you ought to chide them for reading with their eyes closed? After all, they would except it from you before they would from me.

But this I cannot let go by . . .

" . . . although ultimately I think your interpretation is still slaved to your confessional stance."

* My confessional stance (I applaud your choice of words) is by choice—every single day—it is anything but "slavish." Without getting off into another topic, I would suggest that everyone alive has a "confessional stance" (verbally systematized or no).

"At any rate, my reading of "prophecy" is that the various prophetic authors were universally concerned with their own times or the proximate future. . . . Later exegetical traditions which retroject Jesus, or the Righteous Teacher from Qumran, et al. into the Hebrew Bible are not true to the plain sense of the text. "

* I wholeheartedly concur; that is why prophecy/fulfillment is completely inadequate when discussing the validity of the Christian faith (mind you, I am not denying prophecy/fulfillment).

Regarding the tongue-in-cheek remark, it simply implies that I am not aware of the many different directions "prophecy" can go, and makes my head a virtual stepping stone for you to walk upwards. Surely, you would agree that certain textual interpretations are more plausible than others? If I ever implied that others know not of what they speak (and I have), I hope that they were truly unaware of such things (see this very thread). Don't get me wrong, there is a place for it, but not among those whose learning in the topics at hand exceeds that of a hobby.

Regards,

CJD

Stephen T-B

CJD’s got his work cut out in attempting to get his interpretation of Biblical prophecies accepted by the main stream. Collins Concise English Dictionary defines prophecy as: 1. Predictions of the future by a prophet, as supposedly influenced by the guidance of God , or a god.
In common parlance, if a prophecy does not predict the future then it’s not a prophecy; it’s someone guessing.
It looks very much as though that is what Ezekiel was up to in those prohecies quoted in the OP: “...I will make the land of Egypt an utter waste and desolation, from Migdol to Syene, as far as the border of Ethiopia. No human foot shall pass through it, and no animal foot shall pass through it; it shall be uninhabited forty years. I will make the land of Egypt a desolation among desolated countries; and her cities shall be a desolation forty years among cities that are laid waste. I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and disperse them among the countries. Thus says the Lord GOD: I will put an end to the hordes of Egypt, by the hand of King Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon.”
No conditions here. No: “If the Egyptians don’t stop building their damn pyramids I shall...” Just a straightforward military calamity which no historial record refers to.

Fact is, the Biblical God always gets away with it.
A bit inconsistent? That’s our fault because we don’t understanf.
Doesn’t reliably provide his followers with the guidance they seek from him? That’s our fault, because we don’t know how to listen..
He hides in corners and cupboards and isn’t ever seen? That’s our fault because we don't know how to look.
The prophecies he is said to have dictated don’t seem to have been very reliable? That’s our fault because we’re loading them with assumptions which aren’t applicable.

There is of course an alternative, very simple explanation for all the oddities of the OT God: the stories, by a multitude of authors, describe a fictional Super Being invented by the Jews so as to validate their place in the world. Outside that context, why on Earth should we expect it to make any sense?

Calzaer

Quick question:

Do prophecies count as "intervention" in terms of the argument between an interventionist and noninterventionist god-concept?