Radorth

Oh come on Biff. You are (we're pretty sure) saying that Constantine was the catalyst for the "invention" of Christianity as we know it, and that he effectively suppressed what he did not like. You also said Mithrai and some Christian sects were widespread and that they were suppressed in his reign. The implication is quite clear- that orthodox Christianity could never have spread on it's own in the 4th century, without the use of force, but actually it did. It was later on that force was widely used against heretics. You appear to contradict yourself in your own post when you say "at the cost of thousands of lives." This is just another of your vague assertions meant to imply what you cannot prove.

If you haven't noticed, we're just trying to figure out what the hell you are talking about, and all we have so far is scattered assertions and innuendo. But thanks for the opportunity to post actual historical facts while we grope for your point.

Rad

Tercel

Oh, okay you're arguing they borrowed from the Greeks. Sorry, the alleged sources of borrowing change from theorist to theorist and I struggle to keep up.
I'm afraid I'm a little bit skeptical about your interpretation. Can you give me some precise references so I can go an have a look at the sources myself?

Again: can I have an exact reference?


I am sorry, but you haven't convinced me of the super-human powers of Constantine to suppress everyone and everything that he disagreed with. It might be helpful if you could explain what exactly you think he changed about Christianity.

Biff the unclean

Oh come on Biff. You are (we're pretty sure) saying that Constantine was the catalyst for the "invention" of Christianity as we know it,
Of course he was. That isn't even in question.
and that he effectively suppressed what he did not like. You also said Mithrai and some Christian sects were widespread and that they were suppressed in his reign.
The predominant Christian form, Arianism, was declared a heresy. Constantine didn't persecute Mithrains. He was a Mithrain.
The implication is quite clear- that orthodox Christianity could never have spread on it's own in the 4th century, without the use of force, but actually it did.
But it actually didn't. Sacrifice to any of the classical Gods was declared high treason by Theodosius I

It was later on that force was widely used against heretics.
It started in the fourth century, slowed down in the seventeenth and has almost stopped now.

You appear to contradict yourself in your own post when you say "at the cost of thousands of lives." This is just another of your vague assertions meant to imply what you cannot prove.
So you know nothing about European history at all, then? Constantine lead a civil war in which he over threw all the multiple Caesars of the Empire by taking command of the legions stationed in Gaul and those of his late father in Britain. Eusebius tells us that a magic Chi-Rho appeared in the sky and the disembodied voice of the "prince of peace" said to Constantine that in that sign would he conquer. The civil war that Jesus told him he should fight and promised him victory in was where the thousands died.

If you haven't noticed, we're just trying to figure out what the hell you are talking about, and all we have so far is scattered assertions and innuendo.
I'm sorry I didn't realize what a poor education you posses.

Biff the unclean

Oh, okay you're arguing they borrowed from the Greeks.
The Greeks and mostly the Persians.
That's in the surviving Gospels. In the ones that are banned there is a lot of "borrowing" (do they intend to give it back when they have finished with it) from the Egyptians and even from India.

Sorry, the alleged sources of borrowing change from theorist to theorist and I struggle to keep up.
Why is that, do you have a reading comprehension problem? I'm making my own claims. I am writing them out as clear as day. Fiach couldn't have been more clear when he said the same things I have. Maybe if you take your Christian blinders off you'd see better.

I'm afraid I'm a little bit skeptical about your interpretation. Can you give me some precise references so I can go an have a look at the sources myself?
I just did.

Again: can I have an exact reference?
Again-I just did. Are you having trouble looking up Julian the Apostate? Why are you pretending that you aren't getting references when titles and authors are given already? Or is the problem that I'm talking about books and not snippets on Christian web sites?

I am sorry, but you haven't convinced me of the super-human powers of Constantine to suppress everyone and everything that he disagreed with. It might be helpful if you could explain what exactly you think he changed about Christianity
Fiach already went through this at some length. I can't help it if you think the Emperor of Rome was powerless. You probably haven't read The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire because it's so skeptical and biased.

Hey you aren't that Iraqi Minister of Information guy I've been watching on TV are you? The one who says the Americans aren't in Baghdad.

Radorth

Usually when one asserts something like that a Bible book was plagerized, they provide a link. It also prevents the listener from having to read several hundred pages to find out what you are talking about. Of course most have given up anyway, so no great harm done.

Hopefully you won't be called a "liar" as I have for making such a statement without supplying a complete reference to it, or proof acceptable to the other side.

Rad

Biff the unclean

Usually when one asserts something like that a Bible book was plagerized, they provide a link or something. It also prevents the listener from having to read several hundred pages to find out what you are talking about. Of course most have given up anyway, so no great harm done.
You've been provided with links when web sources were referred to and you have been provided with titles and authors when books were referred to. It's not my fault that you are too goddamned lazy to pick up an actual book. You cannot cover entire religions like the Mithrain and Dionysian in a magazine sized article.

Hopefully you won't be called a "liar" as I have for making a such a statement without supplying a complete reference to it, or proof acceptable to the other side.

One thing I find interesting about many Christians who come to II hoping to pick a fight is how intellectually dishonest they are. It seems to be inherent with the philosophy.

In the scientific community when you hear that a favorite theory you have has been challenged you run right out and repeat the experiment that challenged it. You see for yourself if there is anything behind the challenge. Yet with Superstitionists this never happens.

Christianity being nothing but stolen stories from the Hellenists is not a new complaint. It is not the brainchild of some skeptics from the '90s. It has never been argued with more vigor and greater authority than from the Hellenists themselves.
That is why I don't send you to any modern writers, you already have catch phrases at hand to deflect anything that they might say…without actually reading it. I'm sending you to the actual myths themselves. Read them for yourself.

But it is never going to happen. You are never going to stir yourself to find out. Your aren't concerned that what you believe is actually true, you just want to believe it no matter what.

I can just imagine what we might hear from you if you actually did investigate Hellenism 'No, no, no. Dionysus began his ministry by attending a wedding on the island of Andros and turning water into wine. But Jesus went to a wedding in Galilee and turned water into wine and that makes all the difference.'

But what I predict you are going to do is you are going to change the subject, you are never going to do any research and you are going to continue to call the people who have done the research names.

:banghead:

Radorth

Tercel asked you for a specific link to back up a specific assertion. You don't have one so you are now apparently muddying the waters with personal insults and invitations to read volumes just to find one lousy piece of evidence.

Yeah right. All the Bible stories came from the Hellenists-blah blah blah. Actually a very few are quite similar as I recall, but to prove plagerism you need to give a specific list, and you need to show that the NT writers were well aware of them. The majority of agnostic historians apparently disagree with you, and you are left to quote an old fringe scholar for many of your assertions.

Let's check it out. How many skeptics and agnostics out there think the following is an intellectually honest statement?

Rad

Biff the unclean

So I'm proved correct already. That didn't take long. You aren't going to read any of the source material.
You're going to call names, change the subject and ask for a vote…
How many skeptics and agnostics out there think the following is an intellectually honest statement?
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christianity being nothing but stolen stories from the Hellenists
------------------------------------------------------------------------
and this will show just what exactly? The most you can get out of that is an opinion not a fact. Do they think it's an original myth or a warmed over one. Whichever way it's still only a myth.
If you have no intention of reading any of the books out there on Mithra and Dionysus and the Classical Gods then you have nothing to base your objections on. And you have no intention of doing so, why not just admit it?
And you wonder why you made the Hypocrisy doesn't work list.

Don't pester me again until you have some knowledge of Classical pre-Christian Religion.
:banghead:

Radorth

What? No defense of your statement yet, even on an atheist website? Man you must be further out there than I suspected.

Rad

Radorth

Thanks, but I have agnostic/skeptical historians to read them all for me, and save me hundreds of hours better spent doing other things. I find them quite believable, unlike yourself. They don't make sweeping all or nothing statements, for one thing.

Rad