Gregg

In another poll, the appropriately-named "Christian" is claiming that no "former" Christian was ever really a "true" Christian in the first place. His view is that if a person had ever really known Christ and experienced an inward transformation, he/she would never have STOPPED believing in Christ, or left the fold. He also claims that he has never met any former Christians whose experience of Christianity, as they describe it, was anything like his--in other words, feeling Jesus' presence within them, and feeling their minds and hearts transformed by "Christ in you, the hope of glory."

So--I would like to hear from any former Christians out there who feel that they DID have a Christian experience like "Christian's." In other words, when you accepted Jesus as your savior, did you "feel" a "presence" enter you? Did you experience a transformation in mind and heart? Did the feeling of a "presence" in you stay with you for a long time?

Bonus questions:

How "REAL" did this presence feel to you?

What specific things happened to convince you, at least at first, that you had Jesus Christ indwelling you? How did your life change? How did you change?

What caused you to eventually reject Christianity DESPITE this experience (which was presumably a positive one, at least at the beginning)?

Did the feeling of a "presence" leave suddenly, or was it a gradual process?

Thanks for any replies!

Gregg

Kassiana

Heya Gregg? Just so you know, I've debated enough of these "but you never were a Christian..." types to know that they will deny you ever were one even if you copy their statements exactly. They will resort to Argument by Bible (random Bible verses...which don't work, because some NT verses imply that Christians can, indeed, "leave the fold"), Argument by Denial ("You didn't really have that experience, because if you did you'd be just like me!") or Argument by Christian Apologist ("But William Lane Craig says..."). I'll answer anyway, but just so you know, I don't think it'll do any good except for those who've been frustrated by this particular guy on this board.

Gregg:
In another poll, the appropriately-named "Christian" is claiming that no "former" Christian was ever really a "true" Christian in the first place. His view is that if a person had ever really known Christ and experienced an inward transformation, he/she would never have STOPPED believing in Christ, or left the fold. He also claims that he has never met any former Christians whose experience of Christianity, as they describe it, was anything like his--in other words, feeling Jesus' presence within them, and feeling their minds and hearts transformed by "Christ in you, the hope of glory."

Kass:
Yep, standard OSAS B.S. so far.

Gregg:
So--I would like to hear from any former Christians out there who feel that they DID have a Christian experience like "Christian's." In other words, when you accepted Jesus as your savior, did you "feel" a "presence" enter you? Did you experience a transformation in mind and heart? Did the feeling of a "presence" in you stay with you for a long time?

Kass:
Sure did. Heck, I even stopped swearing, cold. I felt the presence of Jesus in my heart.

Gregg:
How "REAL" did this presence feel to you?

Kass:
As real as my mother's when she hugs me.

Gregg:
What specific things happened to convince you, at least at first, that you had Jesus Christ indwelling you? How did your life change? How did you change?

Kass:
I became very interested in the Bible, stopped swearing, and encountered a very committed Christian at summer camp a couple months after I converted who inspired me to continue faithfully with Jesus.

Gregg:
What caused you to eventually reject Christianity DESPITE this experience (which was presumably a positive one, at least at the beginning)?

Kass:
Lots of things. I can't point to one defining moment, one Bible verse, one person who pointed out a contradiction. I was very unhappy with being a Christian for a long time, because the things I had to believe didn't seem to comport with reality. Non-Christians were not, for example, God hating bitter people or stupid people who were just ignoring the massive evidence for Jesus. Hell didn't seem a fair option for those who had been abused by their churches (e.g. the gay man I met who hated Christianity, my friend who was victimized by Catholicism). I started "liberalizing" my views while, of course, denying I was doing any such thing. I excused the evils of the Exodus murders and other Old Testament atrocities by claiming that those who wrote about them misinterpreted what God really did and other liberal dodges. Finally, though, someone I knew, a non-Christian, said in response to someone else, "Would a loving father put his son in a closed crib with a deadly snake in it" in reference to the Garden of Eden story/fall of humanity. I thought, "Well, no, he wouldn't. And if he didn't, there is no need for Jesus to save us from something that didn't happen."

Gregg:
Did the feeling of a "presence" leave suddenly, or was it a gradual process?

Kass:
It didn't. I re-analyzed and looked it over, and realized that never in any of my experiences of "God" had "God" really expressed support for Christian doctrines about her/himself. God had always been a loving, caring presence for me, a support, not a condemning and exclusionary arrogant git. So I looked for a God who better fit my experience than the Christian God, and eventually I found four or five who were much better. That's why I'm a Pagan now, and not a conservative Christian.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Gregg
So--I would like to hear from any former Christians out there who feel that they DID have a Christian experience like "Christian's." In other words, when you accepted Jesus as your savior, did you "feel" a "presence" enter you?

Yes. It was a great deep tide of emotion sweeping through me - I went to my knees right there in church. I'm not normally a demonstrative person, so that was quite unusual behavior for me.

Did you experience a transformation in mind and heart? Did the feeling of a "presence" in you stay with you for a long time?

It stayed with me for about a year, which was the time it took me to read the bible. I'd read bits and pieces before, but that time, still excited by my new and vibrant faith, I decided to read the whole bible from cover to cover.

You can guess what happened when I did.

What specific things happened to convince you, at least at first, that you had Jesus Christ indwelling you? How did your life change? How did you change?

I became much more concerned about the details of christianity, and the fact that everyone did not believe the same thing I did. And since I was in the Middle East at the time, I was worried that my Muslim best friend would burn in hell. It gave rise to a hell of a lot of cognitive dissonance.

What caused you to eventually reject Christianity DESPITE this experience (which was presumably a positive one, at least at the beginning)?

1. Reading the bible and having to wade through all the foreskins, absurd laws and murders
2. Wondering how a loving god could torture people in hell forever merely because they were born in a different culture and taught a different religion.
3. The silence from the sky when I asked any questions.

Did the feeling of a "presence" leave suddenly, or was it a gradual process?

I think it was a gradual process, but that was probably because I hung on to it for as long as possible, trying to see god in the sunlight and the trees, trying to convince myself that there really was something out there even if it wasn't speaking to me and didn't make any sense.

I am so glad to be done with all that!

Celsus

Sorry to not answer your question specifically, but I already had this discussion (if you could call it that) with Radorth. Apparently, he knows me better than I do.

Joel

Gregg

Could you link to the thread? Of course, it means I'll have to take radorth off my blocked list. Unless you've included enough of his quotes in your replies that I can tell what he's yammering about.


gregg

Celsus

Oh of course.

It starts off here although my reply was to his comments on the last part of page 3. After that, I started this thread to stop derailing the previous one.

Joel

sakrilege

Yes, I still have a vivid memory of the event.

Quote:

Did you experience a transformation in mind and heart?

Yes, I changed my focus to obeying god.

Quote:

Did the feeling of a "presence" in you stay with you for a long time?

Yes, the feeling lasted for years.

Quote:

How "REAL" did this presence feel to you?

Extremely real.

Quote:

What caused you to eventually reject Christianity DESPITE this experience (which was presumably a positive one, at least at the beginning)?

The inconsistancy of god as loving and good vs the reality of nature. The number of xian sects that had the answers but didn't agree with each other. Eternal punishment.

Quote:

Did the feeling of a "presence" leave suddenly, or was it a gradual process?

Gradual. I fought it for years not wanting to lose it. I did not want to become an atheist. I know I spent close to 5 years believing only because I wanted there to be a god.

Spaz

I guess I just fall under the category of never having a "real relationship with christ." When I was depressed (not clinically, just the overused "feeling bad" depressed) I prayed like a million times and one time I actually got this "good" feeling you know, no big deal, but it did kind of make me believe it more. Then I actually thought about it (Yeah, big mistake) and the more I did the more I realized it was a feeling I had just created on my own because I wanted it so bad. There was no feeling of actually knowing a god or anything, it was just a simple feeling. The problem all along I guess was that I never bought into the whole thing. As far back as I can remember it never made sense to me, probably an effect of never having questions answered because my parents pretty much just went along with it. The more I thought the more I became atheist (well deist for a while). Being so interested in dinosaurs as a child made me doubt literal creation, even though I even had books trying to tie it in with the bible. Then more information upon more information made me become deist. I guess the beginning of 10th grade made me question my deist stance more and I became atheist. Heh, there's my happy story.

235

I, too, was once a Christian. I read the Bible nightly, prayed often, spoke to god as part of my internal dialogue, went to church services and social groups, sang in the choir, read xtn literature (such as George MacDonald, whose children's lit I still adore despite my current atheist standings-- stong female lead characters, but that is another thread). I strongly believed in my faith and I felt the presence of God all the time and it was something I counted on, something I leaned on, something that I felt made me whole.

During this time (a year or so), I was having a very hard time at home, to make a long story short. The religion helped me, for lack of a better word, "deal" with what was going on simply because I felt that there was something somewhere that cared very much for me and would help me. I physically felt the support of that god. I felt stronger, I felt like I wanted to be a better person b/c of my belief. I dealt with difficult situations by framing things in the "plan of god." I went on work trips to Yonkers, NY and rural Ky to help and preach the support of god.

One day I was standing backstage at a musical in which I was performing, and I looked around at the groups of people around me, mothers and daughters, etc. and suddenly felt extremely alone; I felt the presence of "god" slip away from me. It was like abruptly pulling off your comforter and stepping onto a hardwood floor on a cold winter morning. There was the same shock, shiver, gasp for air. So for me it did happen suddenly, and at the time inexplicably as well.

This feeling was gone and I felt betrayed. I was as alone and sad as I had been before and for what reason, I thought? I was at first angry, but had noone to blame as I could not find that "presence" anymore. I continued to go to church, but even in my "progressive" presbyterian church the evidence that I had apparently previously ignored began to stack up. And as I am by nature an outspoken person, I began to present it to my church leaders. I got the patent xtn responses when I began to bring up the women's place in the bible, comparing other religions, etc. They are excellent, kind, intelligent people at that church, who honestly try to do good work (which was my father's argument for religious exposure despite his disbelief), but could not help me re-find my "misplaced" faith.

After reflection, I found my only logical conclusion for my ex-faith. People are complicated animals, and can create our own internal versions of reality. I was so desirous for the love and support of a family that I created one. As to the strength of those feelings, I believe that it is easier to channel very strong feelings to something that is in fact intangible. How many feelings do we have in a day that we want to express but cannot for whatever reason, and so we have no place to put them? A religion is the perfect place. All the super strong feelings that one wants to express but cannot for whatever reason can be channeled safely into a religion to be expressed or explained. People argue that their religion cannot be wrong b/c they feel it so strongly or personally. I do not dispute the feelings, but I argue that one's strong, personal feelings create a god for them as opposed to a god existing that creates those feelings.

Last night I was reading a thread here in which someone made this point (I apologize that I cannot remember whom it was-- I cut and pasted it out to think about w/o the author's name or corresponding thread):

"Children often place importance upon a teddy bear or blanket. They feel comfort, security, love, a sense of purpose, etc in the teddy bear. Does the fact that the teddy bear does not alter reality or exist as an actual supernatural entity invalidate the child's feelings towards it?
.................
Please tell me how God is any different. What makes adults who need God any different from a child who needs a teddy bear?"

This is one of the conclusions that I have come to regarding my own experience for the need for divine presence as well. From my own experience, I created a support inside me and attributed it to a god in order to feel supported and less alone. After the sudden withdrawl of this "presence", I did have a few months of emotional backlash at the church for providing me with "false hopes," but since then, I have felt much more whole, much more honest in my life and much happier without my old beliefs. I enjoy and appreciate the world that much more.

Last thing. In another thread I was reading last night (perhaps the same one), I also came across this:

Theophilus: "Like all atheists here, you betray that you assume the truth of Christianity while denying it. You say you can't "justify" wasting your short life chasing fantasies. But if Christianity or something exactly like it isn't true, then life is pointless and there need be, in fact cannot be, any "justification" for life choices. The terrorist is no worse than the saint."

Perhaps I should respond to that post on that thread, but in regards to the rant that I am currently on, I feel my life is much more justified as an atheist. I "justify" my life to myself, not to any higher being. I try to do good things: I am a teacher, I smile at people on the street or in the grocery store, I help the homeless, and I advocate recycling, environmental care and education. I try to help, and I do it not because some religion would have me do so, but because I believe that it is the best thing to do. Because I want to help others so that we may all enjoy the time that we have. I am so offended by Theo's implication that w/o religion, noone can be a good person.

So to bring this rambling reply back to Gregg's question, I did think that I was a Christian in the truest sense of the word. I do not doubt that current theists would disagree with me, but so what? They do not know my mind any more than I know theirs. I threw my heart into the gospel, I praised the lord, I smiled at every thought or sign of him-- the belief was strong, but in retrospect, the belief was self-imposed, and I feel freer, stronger, and so much happier without it.

Debbie T

We all thought we were true Christians and all types of Christians feel they are the true Christians. The only difference now is those of us who have left, realized there is no such thing as a true Christian and those who still think they are T.C.'s haven't realized it yet. We realized that what we felt was revealed to us as a lie. Many of us left and felt the freedom and joy of what it is like to not be bound by the lie.

So what does it matter what this Christian thinks whether we were true or not? He is still bound by the chains of religion. We are the free ones. It is his problem and not ours. Because it his problem that is why he has to be in denial about what we were and what we have become. For him to accept what we say as truth will shake his faith up to much. We can see it for what it is and all we can do is feel sorry for what he has to go through to be where he is. We have grown past it, and none of us want to go back to the problems and fears of being a T.C.